Posted on 05/11/2014 4:27:19 AM PDT by NYer
I have no "hatred" of Catholics. I was one until my mid 30s. A very serious one. Most of my beloved family still is. I had no personal relationship with Christ, and no clue about how one becomes saved. I asked many Priests over the years about how I could be sure I would go to heaven. They themselves didn't know. "That's a Great Mystery" was the standard response. Thanks to Christ and the Scriptures, my eyes and heart were opened. Accepting Christ was the most profound thing I have ever encountered.
As to the thread topic, I maintain that the Catholic Church, through the leadership of Pius XII, did a horrible job of confronting the Nazis and an even worse job of protecting the Jews of Europe. Moreover, the Replacement Theology practiced by the church, then and now, is wrong and un-Biblical.
Capitalizing ONE word is now the equivalent of shouting and screaming? YOU (yes, that is for emphasis) began this by repeating at great length and without the most cursory fact-check a horrific slander of the leader of a Church of which you used to be a member. And you take it from an obviously biased website (which relies heavily on Cornwell's book and other biased sources). I would think that common respect not to mention respect for your family members would cause you to exercise a little more prudence.
The more serious problem is not that you garnished this lengthy diatribe with the picture (although that's a problem), but your repeating something that has been discussed and debunked over and over again right here on FR. Even Cornwell has backtracked significantly from his original position. Surely before you repeat something as serious as accusing a religious leader of truly heinous conduct, you should check around a little?
But you cannot seriously have looked at that picture and thought that it was the same man. Finding it on the internet is no excuse - you can find a picture of Elvis meeting a space alien. It supported your own prejudice, so you ran with it. You got caught. You're blaming others.
Not very impressive.
Rabbi David Dalin: The book’s dishonesty does indeed begin on the front cover of Cornwell’s Hitler’s Pope. The book’s title, Hitler’s Pope, is of course historically false and malicious itself. Eugenio Pacelli, who served as papal nuncio in Berlin until 1929, never met or spoke with Adolf Hitler. During Hitler’s much-publicized state visit to Rome in 1938, for example, Pacelli (together with Pope Pius XI) very publicly snubbed the Nazi leader by refusing to meet with him and by leaving Rome for the papal summer residence of Castel Gandolfo.As you note, Tom, the malicious title Hitler’s Pope is reinforced by the book’s misleading jacket, which has a picture of Pacelli, then the papal nuncio in Berlin, leaving a reception given for the constitutionally elected president of Germany, Paul von Hindenburg, in 1927. This photograph, a favorite of those who wish to portray Pius XII in an unfavorable light…
Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the find.
The liberal bestselling attacks on the pope and the Catholic Church are really an intra-Catholic argument about the direction of the Church today. The Holocaust is simply the biggest club available for liberal Catholics to use against traditional Catholics in their attempt to bash the papacy and thereby to smash traditional Catholic teaching — especially on issues relating to sexuality, including abortion, contraception, celibacy, and the role of women in the Church. The anti-papal polemics of ex-seminarians like Garry Wills and John Cornwell (author of Hitler's Pope), of ex-priests like James Carroll, and of other lapsed or angry liberal Catholics exploit the tragedy of the Jewish people during the Holocaust to foster their own political agenda of forcing changes on the Catholic Church today.That at least offers an explanation for why there has been such a sudden focus on this recently.
“Few Americans hate the Catholic Church,. but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church.” —Bishop Fulton Sheen
Very insightful.
The Jewish problem with Pius, IMO, isn’t with his personal actions or the actions of the Church in general at that specific time, it is more generally with the historic Jew-hate and more recent anti-Israel stance taken by the Church. Pius seems caught in the crossfire, so to speak.
I apologize - it was not intended as an attack - and since I have done some lineup work I am probably more aware than most of identification by means of specific facial features.
( . . . but . . . that nose! ;-) )
They are very uneasy with Catholics in general, and you may be right that Pius XII is more of a convenient target than an actual offender.
Point well taken.
I don’t find identifying people from old photos of varying lighting and quality so easy. Certain people can look very different from different angles. Certain actors and actresses come to mind. Other people can be identified easily without seeing their facial features at all.
Bottom line is that Pacelli is misidentified as Pius in a number of photos. To me, it’s the chin that’s a giveaway, but that’s not always clear in old photos.
Pacelli is Pius XII's family name.
But you knew that ! ;-)
Just out of curiosity, I'm going to go and see who it is that identified that individual as then-Cardinal Pacelli, because it is pretty well known that the two men never met face to face.
. . . hmmm . . . searching "Pius XII and Hitler" turns up (1) site that appears to be a Hindu/ Krishna organization of some kind, but written in Polish (I think). (2) Two posts on a photo-posting website in Germany by somebody called "Haakon". (3) Rapture/prophecy site.
OK, I'm completely convinced! :-p
Entering ‘pius xii hitler’ in Google yields a plethora of results. Many more in ‘Images’.
Remarkably cogent historical authority, ya think?
hehe
Here’s a site identifying Pope Pius in 1929. Not ‘future Pope Pius XII’ but just ‘Pope Pius XII’:
http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article1272467.ece
Apparently he's perpetrated another book about a Catholic great: Newman’s Unquiet Grave: The reluctant saint. I don't think I'll order it from Amazon.
No doubt. But there are two other groups jumping in: anti-Catholic protestants and anti-Christian liberals. And, all too often, the three combine - unwittingly.
Well, that DID cross my mind . . . any convenient stick . . .
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