Is There Growing Confusion over Church Teaching?

Crisis Magazine ^ | July 16, 2014 | Dr. William Oddie

[Elsie]

Bingo!

[Elsie]

The Church does not recognize divorce for a sacramental marriage.
.
.
.
Granted these matters are so complicated that they require Marriage Tribunals to sort it out.

The Jews had it easy...

I divorce thee.

I divorce thee.

I divorce thee.

[Elsie]

Where do you think it originated and what is your denomination's position on the usual Once Saved Always Saved teaching ?

Uh...

1. The BIBLE?

2. What does 'usual' mean?

[Elsie]

A seal or guarantee certainly argues against the OSAS argument that believers who fall away were never really saved at all.

This conclusion is what one gets by ignoring (or misinterpreting) some bible verses...

[Elsie]

Great!

Just what I need: more fiber!

[Elsie]

We ALL make mistakes and no one likes a self-appointed grammar nazi. ;o)

No Roget' for YOU!

[Elsie]

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth,...

Of course; you are indeed correct; but incomplete.

ONLY the True Church contains ALL the truth; so RETURN now, and receive great blessings!

--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Hail Mary!)

[metmom]

Where do you think it originated and what is your denomination's position on the usual Once Saved Always Saved teaching ?

Yeah, what is the *usual* OSAS position? THanks Elsie. Good question)

And what are the not usual OSAS positions?

[metmom]

ONLY the True Church contains ALL the truth; so RETURN now, and receive great blessings!

Like what? Being told I can never be sure of my salvation and I have to find out when I get there?

That I have to work my tail off and then be told it wasn't good enough after all?

That I have to grovel a God of anger and judgment so He won't get mad at me and zap me, instead of loving a Father who cares for me and is quick to forgive?

I'll pass.....thankyouverymuch

[metmom]

CB explained what *partakers* means in post 407 and is not the same as *received* as CB showed there as well.

It’s a different word than *believe*, too, as I showed in post 428.

So, no, those who were *partakers* are not those who have believed or received.

[Elsie]

Missionary?

[af_vet_1981]

1. CB explained what *partakers* means in post 407 and is not the same as *received* as CB showed there as well.
2. It’s a different word than *believe*, too, as I showed in post 428.
3. So, no, those who were *partakers* are not those who have believed or received.

1. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost just as we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Same word, same author, same meaning, same God ( the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,)
2. Of course partakers is a different word than believe; they have different roots; partakers is a noun, believe is a verb; the comparison has nothing to do with the meaning of partakers in the book of Hebrews.
3. Since they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost it is reasonable to view them in the same light as these Gentiles: And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

There are five occurrences of this same word (μέτοχος) in the book of Hebrews. The KJV translates the first as "fellows" and the other four as "partakers."

• But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
• Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
• For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
• For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened , and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
• But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

[narses]

Pearls. You cast pearls.

[af_vet_1981]

It originated from modern evangelicalism/easy believism. I believe I alraedy gave you my churches, as well as other Reformed church stand on OSAS.

I accept your explanation and see that perhaps a different vocabulary makes sense. The more orthodox, for want of a better adjective, Protestants could be called genuine historical Protestants, while the more modern denominations could be called something else (Modern, Neo, Other, ?). I'm not sure how we would define those historical Protestants who have somewhat apostasized, although that may be too harsh a term (Anglicans, Episcopalians, Lutherans, and Presbyterians who now accept ordination of women, contraception, abortion, homosexual marriage, and other departures from their denominations' original creeds.)

[af_vet_1981]

Scripture is clear that those who are left to go through the tribulation of Revelation can lose their salvation by taking the mark of the beast.

You make my point for me. Unless there are two versions of the gospel of grace, the same commandment applies to everyone. The LORD and his apostles have repeatedly warned everyone over and over and over again. Whoever can listen should listen to everything they have told us.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[metmom]

He will keep secure those who trust in Him, not those who trust in OSAS. He gets to define what "trust in Him" means and it is to continue in the faith. Never give up. Cling to him because you love him and you will obey him. Remember the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears.

Salvation by works, which Paul disproves in Galatians 3.

He will keep secure those who trust in Him, not those who trust in OSAS. He gets to define what "trust in Him" means and it is to continue in the faith. Never give up. Cling to him because you love him and you will obey him. Remember the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears.

He doesn't promise that. For one thing, those who trust Christ are not trusting OSAS. We trust Christ, not our doctrine. We believe we are secure because HE promised us that He sealed us with His Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Even if we grieve Him, we are still sealed by Him.

You didn't really address the last comment at all, much less really answer the questions.

It's not got to do with the doctrine and Scripture. It's got to do with WHY people want to believe so bad that they are not secure when God promises that we are.

[metmom]

Peter denied Christ.

What was Jesus response?

*Did He say, too bad, you crucified Me to yourself again. No eternal life for you.*?

And who says the persevering to the end by the tribulation saints is done in their own strength? Additionally, it’s only an observation, that those who persevere are the saved ones. The ones who don’t didn’t have the saving faith to begin with, no matter what their works may have showed.

People can have works without faith. Many people are going to appeal to their works and Jesus will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

[af_vet_1981]

We trust Christ, not our doctrine.

I'm good with that.

[CynicalBear]

I know Catholics like to get bogged down in the minutia in order to avoid the pertinent issues but I’m really done with this. Whether one believes in OSOS doesn’t really matter after all. Those who God saves will stay saved or scripture is untrue.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

The only people who don’t believe in once saved always saved are those who believe in a works based salvation. They may want to consider the “filthy rags” perception of their best efforts.

[CynicalBear]

I know Catholics like to get bogged down in the minutia in order to avoid the pertinent issues but I’m really done with this. Whether one believes in OSOS doesn’t really matter after all. Those who God saves will stay saved or scripture is untrue.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.…

The only people who don’t believe in once saved always saved are those who believe in a works based salvation. They may want to consider the “filthy rags” perception of their best efforts.