Evangelicals Hail Pope's Caserta Visit and Apologise to Catholics

Vatican Radio ^ | 7/30/14

[PieterCasparzen]

The saints are alive in Christ. God is the God of the living, not the dead. Mark 12:27

I'm not disputing that.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are to pray to dead saints to get them to make appeals to Christ on our behalf.

The Bible does give specific instructions regarding prayer that it is to be directly to God in Jesus Christ's name.

Praying to anyone else contradicts Biblical teaching.

Getting God's ear is not "based on who you know" or "who your friends are" or if you appeal to "someone with a lot of "pull" in heaven" who can "put in a good word for you". Such ideas are not only nonsensical they are heretical. But since they ring true with many humans, even mafia types and corrupt politicians who are "big wheels" in of some of the RC communities, they have been used for centuries to lead millions of congregants astray from the truth. It never ceases to amaze me how sometimes people who are well-known criminals are welcomed to have their weddings and funerals in RC Churches. That continuing practice in and of itself is enough for many people to see just how corrupt the Roman Church must be, that such people would not be excommunicated.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/parishioners-gotti-wouldn-tolerate-virgin-mary-statue-decapitation-article-1.1578589

Excerpt rom the story:

Ozone Park parishioners say John Gotti wouldn't tolerate Virgin Mary statue decapitation

"For justice, they would have gone to the Teflon Don. St. Mary Gate of Heaven parishioners reckon the deceased Gambino crime boss kept things orderly in the neighborhood and the religious icon wouldn't have been ruined in his day."

...

"Church officials discovered the 4-foot statue decapitated last Monday morning, and the NYPD Hate Crimes Unit is investigating, officials said.

The Gambino crime boss, who died in 2002, never counted himself as a parishioner at the church — he attended St. Helen’s Roman Catholic Church in Howard Beach — but parishioners recall his bond with the 110-year-old institution, which hosted his daughter Victoria Gotti’s wedding in 1984."

[vladimir998]

“I’m not disputing that.”

That’s exactly what you’re disputing.

[PieterCasparzen]

The saints are alive in Christ, Vlad, they just can’t “hook you up” in heaven because they have “pull”.

[vladimir998]

“The saints are alive in Christ, Vlad, they just can’t “hook you up” in heaven because they have “pull”.”

Christ has “pull”. He shares it.

[PieterCasparzen]

Not according to the Bible.

[vladimir998]

“Not according to the Bible.”

Nowhere in the Bible doe sit say there has to be. Sola scriptura is a Protestant heresy. It is neither taught by scripture nor believed by orthodox Christians.

[PieterCasparzen]

Why do you bother with the Bible at all ?

[PieterCasparzen]

Deuteronomy 4:2 “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Proverbs 30

“5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

Revelation 22:18 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:”

To add teachings that are not in the Bible and require Christians to believe them implies that the Word of God is insufficient, that man knows better than God, which is nonsense.

[PieterCasparzen]

Sola scriptura is a Protestant heresy.

So using the Bible as the basis of Christian doctrine is heresy ?

But those "heretical" Reformed Protestants don't have known Mafia bosses and politicians who consistently vote in favor of abortion accepted as members of their Congregations.

And the Roman Church does. Hmmm.

I can see why the Roman Church would want to distance itself from the Bible, and replace it with its own "extensions, enhancements and revisions", like a Christianity version 2.0.

Idolatry isn't heresy if we call it "honoring an image" with the honor "passing through" to the "prototype" of the image.

As long as there are enough Mafia dons in the membership, they will prevent all the statues from being desecrated, and all will be right with the world.

[vladimir998]

“So using the Bible as the basis of Christian doctrine is heresy ?”

Imposing an unbiblical hermenteutic on the Bible - sola scriptura - is heresy.

“But those “heretical” Reformed Protestants don’t have known Mafia bosses and politicians who consistently vote in favor of abortion accepted as members of their Congregations.”

Clearly you’re unfamiliar with the history of Protestant Europe.

“And the Roman Church does. Hmmm.”

I feel sorry for you. I judge the falsity of Protestantism by the falsity of its doctrines. You judge Catholicism by those who reject it. Which is the more sound method?

“I can see why the Roman Church would want to distance itself from the Bible, and replace it with its own “extensions, enhancements and revisions”, like a Christianity version 2.0.”

I can see why Protestant anti-Catholics always have to resort to lying. They have to make things up out of thin air because their doctrines are false and they’re usually to stupid to even hold a logical debate about them. Hence, they lie. Lying is a necessity for them - just as John Henry Newman said it was.

“Idolatry isn’t heresy if we call it “honoring an image” with the honor “passing through” to the “prototype” of the image.”

If it isn’t idolatry, then it isn’t idolatry no matter what you call it.

“As long as there are enough Mafia dons in the membership, they will prevent all the statues from being desecrated, and all will be right with the world.”

So what Mafia members protect Protestant statues from being desecrated?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_Wall

Many Protestant anti-Catholics are proof that government education helps make people stupid.

[vladimir998]

“Why do you bother with the Bible at all ?”

The Bible is the Word of God and sacred. I just don’t impose any false Protestant doctrines on it.

None of the verses you posted actually name, mention, describe, defend, or even suggest sola scriptura.

[PieterCasparzen]

I quoted you 3 verses supporting not “adding or taking away from God’s Word”.

Can you quote any verses supporting “adding or taking away from God’s Word” ?

I’ve been pointing out the falsity of RC doctrines this whole thread and quoting Scripture to do it.

You’ve been simply retorting with “because the Church says so”.

As far as Church membership goes, the outward lives of Christians reflects upon Christianity itself, and thus the Bible exhorts Christians to live godly lives:

1 Peter 2

“11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

And the Bible tells us to exercise Church discipline to keep sin from increasing (as “leaven”) inside the Church:

1 Corinthinans 5

“5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”

After honestly reading that chapter, can one remain in a congregation which includes well-known infamous criminals or politicians which openly and publicly support abortion, if the elders of the congregation refuse to excommunicate said offenders ? Based on that chapter of the Bible, a true believer would have no choice but to depart from that congregation and find or start another, minus the leaven. And if in the whole denomination a congregant sees a pattern of this, year after year, one would have no choice but to depart that denomination and seek one that abided by 1 Corinthians 5 in a more serious and honest manner, regardless of how many generations of “brandname loyalty” one feels towards the denomination.

[FourtySeven]

Well this begs the question: do you, Alex Murphy, consider Tony Palmer your leader?

[PieterCasparzen]

None of the verses you posted actually name, mention, describe, defend, or even suggest sola scriptura.

Ok, I've cited Scripture, IMHO, if you're not seeing anything in what I'm posting then we're about done "debating".

[Alex Murphy]

Well this begs the question: do you, Alex Murphy, consider Tony Palmer your leader?

Are Catholics really gullible enough to believe that he is?

[FourtySeven]

So then your post 2 shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Tell me, should we ever take anything you post seriously?

[PieterCasparzen]

So once a poster employs sarcasm, none of their posts will ever be taken seriously ?

[Alex Murphy]

So once a poster employs sarcasm, none of their posts will ever be taken seriously ?

Ooooh boy. I'm in trouble.

[FourtySeven]

So once a poster employs sarcasm, none of their posts will ever be taken seriously ?

Let me employ one of Alex's favorite tactics and answer a question with a question:

Did I ever say, "...once a poster employs sarcasm, none of their posts will ever be taken seriously ?"

Now, let me go beyond what he usually does and actually have the courtesy to answer your question directly:

I answer, "No. I don't say that if a poster uses sarcasm on occassion, future posts shouldn't be taken seriously."

[vladimir998]

“I quoted you 3 verses supporting not “adding or taking away from God’s Word”.”

That is not support for sola scriptura.

“Can you quote any verses supporting “adding or taking away from God’s Word” ?”

Since that is a false premise for or against sola scriptura, it wouldn’t matter.