Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: PieterCasparzen

“Christ is the ONE mediator between us and God the Father.”

So you never ask anyone to pray for you? I bet you do. Does the fact that you asked someone to do that mean he isn’t working through Christ? Nope. Christ shares His offices with His people - such as the office of judge for the saints will judge fallen angels. Our God is a generous God.

“There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.”

There is no verse that says all truths are in Scripture either. Show me the verse that says Matthew wrote a Gospel. Show me where in that Gospel it says that the Gospel is inspired. Can you?

“There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.”

I would say there is - the wedding of Cana, but in any case your opinion is irrelevant.

“There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.”

I don’t disagree with any of them. Christ shares His office with His brothers and sisters who call upon the Father as Abba. Hence you can pray for someone and so can I. Our God is a generous God.


27 posted on 07/30/2014 7:30:32 PM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies ]


To: vladimir998
So you never ask anyone to pray for you? I bet you do. Does the fact that you asked someone to do that mean he isn’t working through Christ? Nope. Christ shares His offices with His people - such as the office of judge for the saints will judge fallen angels. Our God is a generous God.

Yes, but people who are alive. I pray for others, who are alive, not the dead, for whom prayers are too late.

“There are no Scripture verses which instruct us to pray to dead people and ask them to pray for us.”

There is no verse that says all truths are in Scripture either. Show me the verse that says Matthew wrote a Gospel. Show me where in that Gospel it says that the Gospel is inspired. Can you?


Come now, we should know the basics of interpreting Scripture.

“There are no Scripture verses which afford Mary any unique intercessory position in relation to Jesus Christ.”

I would say there is - the wedding of Cana, but in any case your opinion is irrelevant.


Quite the opposite; from Jesus' wording in those very brief exchanges we can only infer that she indeed had no such special place. Of course, your phrase saying that my opinion is irrelevant is invalid, it's an ad hominem argument.

John 2

"1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."

The only other mention of Mary in that chapter was:

"12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days."

Commentary on this account:

1) We can infer from Mary advising Jesus they were out of wine that she knew that he had the power to address the issue, as she did not pose a question, and his response implies that he understood her words to be a request for him to address the issue. She simply advised him they were out of wine, she did not speak in familiar "jocular" manner one could expect of a mother and son who tended to have a "kidding", etc., relationship, she did not "nag", she did not try to "convince" Jesus to do something; she spoke to him as one speaks to one in authority.

2) In verse 4 Jesus addresses Mary his mother as Woman, and his response is not that of an earthly son who would graciously do what his mother asks in such a case, but instead Jesus makes a point of speaking from a position of authority.

3) Not knowing what Jesus was going to do, her command to the servants to do whatever Jesus commanded indicates that she fully trusted that he would successfully address the situation. Not only did her words in verse 5 demonstrate that she submitted to Jesus' authority, but she also exhorted the servers at the party to obey Jesus.

There clearly is nothing in this chapter to suggest that Mary was afforded a special intercessory position, because there is no basis upon which to infer that that anyone at the wedding asked Mary to ask Jesus about the wine shortage. This is Christ's first miracle, so no one would have any reason to look to Christ to somehow produce wine where there was none. How Mary found out is left out; was she helping serve at the wedding, did she simply overhear, did someone mention it to her ? Scripture does not say. To create such a major doctrine as Mary having an intercessory role from the hereafter based on what is left out of such a short account makes no sense.

Such an idea is completely contrary to the doctrine Christ preached elsewhere, notably:

Mark 3

"31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

That passage clearly contradicts the idea that Mary had any special role so important as an intercessor.
30 posted on 07/30/2014 9:32:41 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies ]

To: vladimir998
“There are multiple verses which tell us that Christ is the ONE mediator between God and man.”

I don’t disagree with any of them. Christ shares His office with His brothers and sisters who call upon the Father as Abba. Hence you can pray for someone and so can I. Our God is a generous God.


We pray directly to God in the name of Jesus Christ, as our mediator.

Christ does not share his role as mediator; we can not pray to God in any name other than Jesus' name.

Prayer instructions were specifically asked for by the disciples and specifically given by Christ himself. With that specificity, proper Biblical interpretation would require us to infer that Christ gave sufficient and thorough instruction to the point of being perfect instructions that are recorded in Scripture. There is no valid way to from that text conclude that Christ "should have" or "intended to but did not" say that we could also pray to Mary and she would convey our requests on to him. If that were indeed the case, the place in Scripture where that would be included would be in the instructions for prayer uttered by Jesus himself when he was asked specifically for instruction regarding prayer.
31 posted on 07/30/2014 9:43:40 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson