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Posted on 11/11/2016 8:13:53 AM PST by ebb tide
Yoo hoo! :)
I go to an FSSP parish. There are a few older folks at our parish but by FAR the majority are families....TONS of kids.
I never learned Latin, so as a Catholic a Mass in that language would be pretty pointless to me.
Oh don't write it off so quick. My wife never took a day of Latin in her life and she LOVES it. She was the one that introduced the Latin Mass to me, and I actually studied Latin in school!
To sing the Adoro Te Devote...the Asperges, the Missa De Angelis, the Dies Irae. Sicut cervus. Ah, it's heaven my friend, heaven!
So, your daily homework assignment would be done in English, but your valedictory address or senior thesis or speech to a learned society might be done in Latin.
Educated people were expected to know Latin, and maybe Greek, even before they were expected to know non-native foreign modern languages.
The vocabularies of many of the professions, from music to law to medicine are still rich in Latin vocabulary and phraseology.
This is not mere posturing or affectation: The concepts of law and medicine and music that the ancients used daily are the same concepts we use daily in the professions. We have built on their knowledge and wisdom, as conservatives, and want to preserve what they did, not destroy or remake it.
All this probably stems from the remnant of civilization that was preserved after the Dark Ages became the Middle Ages, and this continued until the Renaissance, during which epochs Latin was a means of preserving and conveying knowledge ancient and modern.
So in a way the departure from this solid tradition occurred in 1962, and efforts to reestablish the Latin Mass are just another way of reconnecting with and establishing unity with a saner period in human history.
In case you have not noticed, there is nowadays an almost complete abandonment of logic, learning, and preservation of knowledge.
Modern men and children are clueless barbarians compared with people from just a generation or two before.
Rhetoric, argument, logic, mathematics are all considered silly to the tattooed primitive ape-men of today.
Even worse, modern ape-men are so stupid and feral that they are almost incapable of reproducing themselves to continue on the species.
No surprise to me that faithful men ("rigid" or "insecure" men in popespeak) want to connect with the most powerful spiritual force and culture from ancient times until modern ones, to-wit the Catholic Church. And no surprise they seek, in their faith, a retreat and a tonic from the horrible atheo-satanism and nihilism of the modern hipster age.
Whereas, the Vatican 2 clowns, present pope included, want to mix up Holy Catholic culture with the feculent humanist hipster culture so as to make it (somehow they believe this makes sense) palatable and inviting to the snowflakes.
Can we recall this guy
In the meantime he still has not uttered a word about the destruction of the Catholic faith in the once most Catholic country in the world - Ireland. The “Catholics” in the country voted for homosexual “marriage” and not a word from the pope on the dying religion or why it’s dying and what can be done to hopefully save it from extinction. He also said not nary a word when one man on the US Supreme Court, a “Catholic” by the name of Anthony Kennedy made homosexual “marriage” the law of the land in the United States. The pope would rather talk about global warming and gun control.
“The current position of the Church is that Mass should be said in the local language of the people so that it can be understood”
Exactly!
As in “speaking in tongues”?
1 Corinthians 14: New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? 7 Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? 8 For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? 9 So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11 Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me. 12 Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.
13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
There's no "culture" of Esperanto...it was a rather optimistic proposal that never really got off the ground. English is far, far more of a universal language that Esperanto ever was.
And I'd be careful about "spoken by almost no one". At our parish we speak it, and sing it, and pray it, every week. Liturgical languages do not have to be spoken *in the home* at all--in fact they are often not. I doubt Egyptians are speaking Coptic or Ukrainians are speaking Old Church Slavonic.
Generally only newbies and kids can't understand. Latin-English Missals tell you everything you need to know, and of course if you have a Catholic education you are taught all the various parts of the Mass and what they mean. The text doesn't change much week to week so it's easy to follow. And then you also learn Latin along the way. If you are used to singing "Adeste Fideles" or "Gloria in Excelsis Deo" or "Veni Emmanuel" at Christmas time, it's very much like that.
Having said that, traditional worship is traditional for a reason. And that’s because it’s tried and tested, and it works!
Bingo...you nailed it! Been working for 1500 years at least. :)
I tell people who doubt that Bergoglio is pro-abortion to go to Bing, and search for: EMMA BONINO POPE FRANCIS
I’m sure you’ve noticed a phenomena, perhaps caused by a bacteria, that journalists or even real people don’t even know when a Greek or Latin word is singular or plural.
I’ve learned a touch of Latin. Here in the LCMS we still use Latin in parts of our liturgy. Not exactly chanted, but you can see the influence of ancient worship and the respect we pay to it.
Good on those who teach the kids and newbies what it means too! It makes me crazy when clergy and parents expect the other to do the teaching when in fact it needs to be both.
And as an afterthought, Mozart’s The Deum is one of my favorite compositions ever.
First Pope, ever, who repeatedly says that those who disagree with him, or even have different tastes, are neurotic, have a personality disorder, or are probably living a “double life.” (That’s Catholic code for sexual sin.)
He’s the first pro-abortion Pope. Go to Bing, and search for EMMA BONINO POPE FRANCIS
The criteria I use to judge modern journalists is very low. The data shows that they are pretty dumb. LOL!
That sounds a bit......ya know......"rigid".
My father used to say: “Don’t throw your used Kleenices on the floor!”
We order that the prescriptions of this Constitution go into effect November 30th of this year, the first Sunday of Advent. We wish that these Our decrees and prescriptions may be firm and effective now and in the future, notwithstanding, to the extent necessary, the apostolic constitutions and ordinances issued by Our predecessors, and other prescriptions, even those deserving particular mention and derogation. - Paul VI, “Apostolic Constitution” Missale Romanum (1969)
And those that did not or put up a fight over it were reprimanded and/or disciplined.
So effectively? Yeah, it was forbidden.
That is precisely what he did NOT make clear.
There isn’t a syllable there that even suggests that the old Mass is forbidden. All Paul did was promulgate a new Missal. All that flowery language refers only to the promulgation of the Novus Ordo.
He knew he didn’t have the authority to abrogate the old Missal, and he never did. He knew that bishops were punishing the celebration of the old Mass, but he never did more than wink at this.
When Catholics use the expression "Latin Mass" they aren't really referring to the language of the mass, though they are, they are actually referring to a form of the mass that existed prior to the liturgical reforms of the 1960s. This 'new' mass, the Mass of Paul VI, is the fruit of the Second Vatican Council and finally promulgated in 1970.
Prior to 1970, the mass celebrated universally was the fruit of two millennia of organic grown ultimately formalized in 1570 by Pius V and only occasionally amended from that date on up to 1962.
It would be quite easy for your to make a comparison yourself of this 'new' mass (novus ordo) to the 'old' mass (Tridentine Mass, Extraordinary Form, or usus antiquior ) by having a look at them in English on line here.
Open up the links in two separate windows side-by-side and read them from beginning to end. Note the similarities and the dissimilarities. In some cases the latter are minor and in others they are not so minor. Also be on the look out for out-and-out omissions. These are most telling. Please remember as you read them that you are reading prayers, the highest form of prayer in the Catholic Church actually.
And one last point, on the Latin language in fact, one thing it has to commend it is its unchanging quality. It's a dead language so the meanings of words cannot change over time. And from my personal experience as a kid in Catholic school in the 1970s, a mass in Latin absolutely eliminates the possibility of the priest ad libbing on the altar. "Sorry Father Mike, this ain't about you."
Sorry for the long answer. I hope you find it helpful.
In the Latin mass, is the entire church service(the complete liturgy, the singing, the responsive reading and the homily) all in Latin or just the part of the service dealing with the Eucharist?
Thanks.
I appreciate your answer.
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