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Posted on 06/25/2019 3:55:18 PM PDT by ebb tide
Twelve baskets for the remains of five loaves?
Sounds like multiplication to me.
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It could have happened in more than one way: Jesus made 5 loves into 5,000 then they shared them, or he made the five loaves so bountiful that the pieces from them fed the multitudes with twelve baskets left over. You can use the word multiply to describe the latter explanation, but you don’t have to, as he accurately points out the word is not actually in the text.
Regardless, what he says in this sermon is 100% orthodox and in no way does he deny a miracle. Indeed he explicitly says that a miracle occurred. So the quote from Pius about naturalism is not on point.
There’s no lack of dubious sayings by Francis to criticize. This sermon is not one of them.
One more point. I just reread the quote from his sermon and he actually does say (contrary to the erroneous headline of this post) that there was a multiplication, but it’s not the emphasis of the story:
“In effect, the emphasis is not on the multiplication but the act of sharing.”
You may disagree about whether the emphasis is or should be on the multiplication, but regardless the headline quoting Francis as saying there was no multiplication is factually incorrect.
thanks much for your thoughts!
i claim ZERO expertise at interpreting Greek scriptures or non-scriptures, its all Greek to me, ha!
however,
the clear purpose of the author was to instill faith in the reader by relating a “miracle”....
and while any reader is of course free to “believe” that the miracle took place, or not....it just surprised me to hear the pope questioning it, if indeed he did so?
I retire from this controversy as I was not there when Pope Francis spoke ... but he sure does get a lot of press coverage that at least indicates some questions about his faith commitment or principles, imho. Either he does indeed have spiritual issues or else the press has been misquoting or maligning him... like the press does to PDJT maybe?
i cannot know, but the reading, at least, is concerning
You've made the argument for scripture over tradition....which is the correct one.
Until he dies or is "taken out" as some have advocated.
Per Roman Catholic canon law, there is really nothing that can be done to remove a sitting pope.
The purpose of the miracles is to point to Jesus as divine and instill faith in us towards him. In a larger context the creation of the universe and all of life is a miracle and does the same.
The OP has a link to the official transcript. I would say you are correct to question this story.
The Pope does in fact say there was a multiplication,
“ The same thing happens in the Gospel: before multiplying the loaves, Jesus blesses them: “Taking the five loaves, he looked up to heaven and blessed and broke them, and gave them to the disciples” (Lk 9:16). A blessing turns five loaves into food enough for a great crowd: the blessing releases a cascade of goodness.”
My reading is that the Pope is saying not that there wasn’t a miracle but that the miracle was secondary to the sharing. There is enough bad about this Pope without a religious media engaging in fake news.
...and on that day, Jesus put it to James to ask the crowd to see if anyone was hungry and 5 people raised their hands....
I see. Thanks much for the info! Yes, indeed. The mass media has many problems and is not very reliable nowadays.
Yes. Agreed, that’s the idea Thanks!
Well, who ya gonna believe, some guy named after a cartoon ghost, or the Apostle Paul?
It’s really pretty simple,Christ either rose or he is no different from any other dead charlatan.
OK, so let’s go with ... the miracle is second to the sharing. This is still a focus on man rather than on God. This is humanism....which is completely at odds with Catholic teaching. However, it is very much in line with the New Religion.
This is the typical position of leftist “Christians” who are unbelieving. No surprise there.
Religious medals are worn for devotional reasons. They are a reminder of our need to maintain a life of prayer — including prayer to the saints for their intercession, which as you know is NOT worship of saints. Moreover, there is the real trust in blessed objects as a sort of demon repellent. Now, people who don’t believe in demons will scoff, but I assume you do and understand why a Christian would want to drive them away. Sacred objects and truly holy persons are noisome to demons; they can’t bear to be near them. Any exorcist will be glad to confirm this.
As for multiple “Hail Marys”. Half of the prayer is literal verses from Holy Scripture. Do you read the Bible once in your life and then put it away forever? Is it not good to return to and to meditate on the inspired word of God? The second half of the prayer is a request that the Mother of God pray for us. She was given to John as his mother at the foot of the Cross, and because we’re members of the Body of Christ, she is our mother too. Asking your mother for prayer is the most natural thing in the world, isn’t it? Even more than once?
I’m not seeing how this is humanism. God gives blessings which He then instructs the Disciples to set before the crowd. We as disciples have an instruction here. I think this is a very standard sermon.
May the King of Kings judge this imposter ever so harshly. My Jesus did a multiplication miracle! Jesus himself even refers to it in Matthew 17:8-10, in the context of the disciples saying they had no bread. Jesus is saying there, to paraphrase, “you watched me feed 5000 with 5 loaves, and 7000 with 4 loaves, and you’re worried about having bread?”
an outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters. Humanist beliefs stress the potential value and goodness of human beings, emphasize common human needs, and seek solely rational ways of solving human problems.
This is what Bergoglio does all.the.time.
If you don't see the problem with Bergoglio focusing on the good that humans can do (sharing with each other) rather than on the miracle of God, then there is nothing more that I can say.
Sorry, brother, I’m dyslexic. I should have said, 4000 with 7 loaves not 7000 with 4 loaves. Still a miracle, with emphasis not on sharing, but on Jesus’ power.
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