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To: dartuser
Joh 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Joh 14:13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

He doesn't say Apostles only, but all believers. The difference is we still have sin in our lives. We are double minded by still trying to live on the fence of carnal life and spiritual life. We are lukewarm finding excuses not to follow Jesus and live as He lived.

If you'll notice, the Apostles dropped what they were doing, left their families, and followed Jesus until they met an untimely death. We won't bother to go to church if it's raining or too cold. We talk a big story, but then pull up porn on our computers, or cheat on the IRS. "Everybody does it" is not what God wants to hear.

The reason I even posted here was to explain speaking in tongues and why it's a sign that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 80% of church going Christians don't speak in tongues and don't believe it is a gift from God. If you don't have the Holly Spirit indwelling, there is no hope of performing miracles because He is the one doing it, not you. We can copy the words we think Jesus said to heal people, but if the Holy Spirit is not there, it is empty words. People generally believe if they can't do it, it must be a fraud. You must ask to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but most don't believe or want it. They think it will embarrass them and make them look extreme. If that's you, then brace yourself for a life without supernatural things in your walk. Instead of finding verses that give you an excuse for why things aren't happening in your walk with Jesus, find verses that explain why the Apostles were able to perform miracles.

I have a Baptist pastor friend that doesn't believe in the gifts being given today, but believes they died with the Apostles.

Here are some relevant verses.

1Co 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

1Co 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul is saying that the gifts will fade away at some point in the future. The difference in what I believe and what the baptist pastor believes is what is "perfect" and when did it come? He believes the Bible is perfect and was finished in Rev 22, so when John died, the spiritual gifts were taken away. In truth, we are still writing Acts 29. In Rev and angel told John to NOT write the thunders.

Rev_10:4 Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them." So the Bible isn't finished on purpose and we won't know the end until it happens, so, IMO, the Bible isn't finished on purpose.

I believe that the perfect is the return of Jesus and we see Him face to face. The only time that can happen is when we have a resurrected body. Our carnal body cannot stand before God without being consumed. Our new celestial body will be indestructible and never die or get sick, so we will be able to stand before God and see Him face to face. When we see Jesus face to face, we no longer will need the gifts of the Spirit because we will be as He is. If you feel like you are as Jesus is, then the gifts are gone. But if you don't think you resemble Jesus, we still need the gifts to have power to be His hands and feet on the earth.

Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His Apostles, but then the disciples were baptized in the Holy Spirit in the upper room in Acts 2. That was several hundred that received the gifts, not just the 12. What would make you and I different from those in the upper room that day?

I have come to believe that if we aren't able to duplicate the miracles that Jesus and the Apostles did, is we are not like Jesus and the Apostles. If you study the lives of the Apostles, they left everything, even family, and followed Jesus, went to prison, were beaten, and finally murdered for their faith. Comparing what I have given up VS them, I believe that is why only some are healed that I pray for. I have been witness to several healing's and other miracles. Many have stopped drugs and alcohol, marriages have been healed, monetary provision made, businesses saved, ect. But not all were healed immediately. If you want to say "the drugs finally kicked in", that's fine, but I have also seen that the drugs never "kicked in".

In many places in Scripture, We hear Jesus say "I never knew you" to people that believe they are true Christians. We fool ourselves into thinking what we are doing is "enough". Many "devout" Christians don't pray everyday, don't read their Bibles every day, and never witness to anyone, not even family. Most of us think we know enough about Scripture and don't need to study. We've become "unteachable". We might be known as the most Christian of Christians and receive respect from others. Many skip church thinking you are good enough to miss a few a year. We think we have knowledge about God, but what He is looking for is a relationship with us. Many of us think we are sons and daughters of God, but only speak to Him once a week, never come into His presence, and when He speaks to us, we ignore Him. We need to be asking God, what would you have me to do for You? And when He answers, follow through with it. Most of us have nothing in our lives that even resembles anything like that. But when we pray, we are disappointed that God didn't jump when we said jump. If we are truly on a walk to look more like Jesus, we should at times reevaluate where we are in our walk. The miracles will come when we get closer to the mark. If Paul had tongues, why don't we all? We will need power from on High to perform anything for God. We will NEVER be able to do anything in our own strength.

64 posted on 08/05/2019 10:51:04 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: chuckles
You must ask to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

And that is my entire point ... show me in scripture ... where Paul says "You must ask God to receive the baptism of the spirit" ...

Its not there ... anywhere ... nowhere does the text of scripture command us to seek the baptism of the HS. And because you believe in this second blessing you have in fact put experience above the Bible!

Further, if we are suppose to do above and beyond what the apostles were told (yes, only the apostles were in the upper room in John 13-17) ... then why don't you drive to the nearest hospital and empty the place out.

Paul asked the question "Do all speak in tongues?" ... In the greek, he asked it with a definite "NO" answer in mind. Any first semester seminary student will affirm that. If not all speak in tongues then tongues cannot be the evidence of the indwelling HS. It is rather, the FRUIT of the indwelling spirit that is the evidence for His possession ... not fake signs and wonders.

Last point, why did Jesus specifically mention that false believers could prophecy, cast out demons, and do miracles? Since people in your camp routinely do all three of these ... doesn't that at least give you pause? Should that not at least cause you to think seriously about whether what you believe is Biblical?

65 posted on 08/05/2019 1:10:36 PM PDT by dartuser
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