Why Christians Don't Understand Non-Christians

ArGee | 1/3/01 | ArGee

[azhenfud]

"Perhaps death means something different to God than it does to us. Mortals may see death as the end of everything, and if that is true, God is indeed cruel in cutting a person's life short. But from God's perspective, perhaps death is merely the gateway to a different form of life, just as birth is the gateway to mortality."

This is exactly my point of discussion with our fellow OWK. Our human based POV is limited to the physical realm. Here, our comprehension of the spiritual has sustained only cosmetic scratches effected by human's attempts of religious beliefs...
Az

[ArGee]

In reading the Old Testament, the God of Abraham comes across to me as a demented tyrant who stomps about the earth in bloody murderous tantrums if he is not properly genuflected to.

How many times have you read it? You certainly get a different picture of G-d than I do from it. Maybe you're seeing what you're looking for in there?

Shalom.

[RnMomof7]

Now, since the church is autonomous, it has regular business meetings, attended by the membership at large. During these meetings the church can conduct any and all business. Remember "Susan X" from the above paragraph? She came into membership on promise of a "letter" from the XYZ Baptist church. The XYZ Baptist church, meeting in business session, would decide whether to grant this "letter of recommendation" to the requesting church. I was simply speaking in my earlier post of how it is ludicrous to grant a "recommendation" for a person you don't even know (for all you know they are an axe murderer!).

Such letters would also be needed in a "structured " church as the one I belong to.If I were to relocate or just decide to change churches locally,a similar procedure would occur...however I would have to look in the manual to se if the church board was brought into the picture. I think (by my poor memory) that because the Pastor is under a superintendent and serves at his will along with the local church..that he is the sole voice needed for a reference.Without it there could be no membership transfer at all. I am not sure what would happen to the person..perhaps a time of attendance and them membership classes there if that Pastor decided.

In my denomination the pastor is the decision maker..

[discostu]

Oh I've talked to a lot of believers, in general I aim up in the food chain. I've had great discussion with pastors, priests, and rabbis. Rabbis rock, I don't care what your faith is Rabbis give good talk and solid advice (especially the Hassids).

In general it depends on the sect and the believer. There are a lot of fire and brimstone folks out there, Christianity has more than any other religion I've encountered. The Sunday morning TV crowd doesn't seem to be able to complete a sentence without mentioning the fires of Hell.

As for whether I'm interested in that kind of relationship: not any more. Been there, done that, didn't like it, ain't going back. Maybe it's because I'm an only child from a single parent household whose mom worked night for a while, but self suficiency is really my thing. At least on the spiritual level I go through life kind of like Caine in Kung Fu, walking the earth alone solving problems where I can. That's how I'm comfortable.

[Elsie]

For you atheists and agnostics that do not believe, like, understand the God or various gods that man has on this planet, feel free to come up with one that WILL fit YOUR requirements!

When you do, please let the rest of us in on His attributes so that we may see if there are anythings that WE don't not believe, like, understand: thereby allowing you to tweak your Design until this GOD(s) is acceptable to all Mankind (and Womenkind).

Harmony will now result.

[ArGee]

I mean... what kind of God would demand that a devoted follower be willing to slit the throat of his own beloved son, just to prove he loves him?

Did you read that story in the Bible?

All of it?

All the way to the end?

I mean, all the way to where Jesus said, "It is accomplished!"

Shalom.

[LuvItOrLeaveIt]

The assertion is that the Bible was written by G-d. Actually, the true assertion is that the Bible was inspired by G-d. The challenge is that the Bible is mere mythology. However, anyone who has studied literary types knows the Bible is not mythology. It is 66 books written by 40 different writers from all walks of life. There is history, persuasion, and poetry. There is no mythology.

The same can be said of The Iliad. By the logic you present here, Athena is a real goddess, Zeus and Mars are real gods. I say, "Preposterous!"

There are many things in the Bible that defy any other explanation than that it is inspired by G-d.

ibid.

Predicting the future is one thing.

ibid.

Scientific information that was not discovered by science for centuries is another.

Scientific information such as bats being birds, grasshoppers having four legs, the earth being flat, unicorns and dragons existing, and other such nonsense?

But the real reason to trust the Bible is that it bears witness to Jesus Christ, G-d's Son, who died that we may live. Jesus redeemed us from our bondage to sin so that we could become the free sons of G-d. Jesus bears witness to the Father, the Bible bears witness to Jesus. For this reason, if for no other, the Bible is reliable.

Nonsense, present the independently verifiable evidence.

It would help if you got to know Jesus. Do you know Him?

Sure I know Jesus Rodriguez. He cleans the pool at my gym!

[ArGee]

I, for one cannot believe that we were put here just to suffer and spend our whole lives trying to convince someone of something that no one will know of for sure, while they are alive, and will know for sure after they die?

Why do you think we are here?

Oh, and I am sure. Absolutely sure. I am at the table now. The food is good. The wine is outstanding. The fellowship is divine.

Come to the Table.

Shalom.

[Elsie]

I did not cite any percentages. I know of no source for such statistics.

---

(It was the word FEW.)

Now you say MANY?! I'm confused!

[ArGee]

Your point is well taken, and thank you.

The "rich man", assuming this is meant to portray a Christian who is anxious to share the joy of Christ's love, wouldn't have become enraged, have 'em tossed out, etc.

But remember, the men were going to start ruining the deal for everyone else. That was the part the rich man couldn't abide. I wish G-d would do that here, but He won't because He is as you portray Him.

Still, it is only a story. I believe (hope?) the point is still made.

Shalom.

[Elsie]

Remember:

There is a human being at the other end of that reply.  Just because you cannot see the person who is receiving your nasty words does not mean those words don't carry an impact.

And Remember: 

I believe with all of my heart that the greatest gift you can give yourself and others is to write.  The Internet is a stunning venue for all that anyone has to say.  I urge you to write even if you never allow another person to read it.  It cleanses you.  It keeps you sane.

And Remember: 

Never let anyone change your voice.  Listen to your teachers but if what they say may alter how you write, take it with a grain of salt.  There are rules like correct spelling and grammar.  What I am talking about here is your voice.  I was told numerous times during my education that my writings were, "too conversational."  Thank goodness I didn't listen.

And Remember: 

You'll do better by helping people to learn a programming language or format (or any other thing) than you will by sending them a letter that tells them how stupid they are for making a mistake or not knowing as much as you do.

And Remember: 

Complete privacy on the Web is an impossibility.

And Remember: 

The single most wonderful thing about the Web is that it levels the playing surface.  Everyone has an equal voice.

And Remember: 

The single most terrible thing about the Web is that it levels the playing surface.  Everyone has an equal voice.

And Remember:

The Internet is not wires and computers.  The Web is communication in its more pure form.

And Finally:

Although some might feel it trite to end on someone else's quote, I feel it appropriate.   Every now and then, when I received a particularly nasty reply, I would reply with this quote as the body of my message.  The statement was made by Teddy Roosevelt in his "Citizenship in a Republic" Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris on April 23, 1910.  It goes:

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of  deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

[ArGee]

they seemingly can't imagine thinking outside of the narrow compartmentalized box

You mean like imagining a being that doesn't have sex?

If you study the G-d of Christianity and Judaism you will discover one thing more than anything else.

G-d is not like something a man would invent.

Shalom.

[occam's chainsaw]

Do you want them to TOLERATE sin? Forgive REBELLIOUSNESS?

Do you tolerate yourself or are you claiming not to be a sinner? What do you mean by rebelliousness?

[Elsie]

E=MC²

 

also..........

 

M=E/C²

 

The question is.......... "Where did the Energy come from?"

[discostu]

Yeah yeah He fixed it all up later. BFD. Restitution doesn't make it right. The fact remains that God messed up Jobs life for the sole purpose of proving a point to Satan, not even working to prove a point to Job, that I could handle. No, proving a point to the King of Lies, like anybody really cares what Satan thinks. Bribing Job after the fact does not make the situation any better.

[ArGee]

Like Abraham was foolish enough to think God would actually expect him to carry through with it.

Actually, I think Abraham did think G-d would actually expect him to carry through with it. Rev Shaul (aka Paul to most Christians) was a student of Gamaliel and a student of Talmud. He taught that Abraham believed that G-d would raise Isaac from the dead so that Isaac could still be the fulfillment of the promise. Does this not agree with what you were taught?

In fact, it was the belief that G-d would raise Isaac from the dead if necessary that was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

Shalom.

[LuvItOrLeaveIt]

I am truly sorry if I have done anything to give that impression to you. Please share with me how I gave you that impression.

You assert that your alleged god is an existant being. To that, I answer, "Trot him out!"

And now, the heart of the matter. G-d did not meet your expectations.

Nope, the claims of an existant god do not meet my expectations. Thjere are over 4000 gods alleged to exist at various points in human history and by various priests etc.. Not one of the claims can meet my requirements. You assert a god exists. In logical discourse, the claimant with the initial positive assertion is under the burden of proof. Trot out your alleged god or the debate is over.

Just a question, if G-d is who the Bible says He is, then why should you demand He meet your expectations. Isn't it more reasonable that He should demand you meet His?

This is just another spin on Pascal's wager which is a fallacious argument. The same could be said of any of the other 4000 alleged gods. I don't demand your alleged god meet my expectations, I require you to back up your assertions about your alleged god with independently verifiable evidence. You cannot, the debate is over.

Think about it.

I have given the matter a great deal of thought, hence I am an atheist.

P.S. All current scholarship is that Luke was actually Luke, and one of the best historians of ancient times there ever was.

Produce the manuscript penned by Luke.

[Exigence]

Many of the Christians I have observed are very judgmental, intolerant, snobs who tend to look down their noses to non-Christians.

Thanks for showing us what tolerance looks like. /sarcasm

[Belial]

Jesus was not telling the ruler he was not saved. Jesus was telling the ruler why his life was not abundant.

Actually, Jesus wasn't talking to a ruler at all in that bit of Scripture. He was talking to a young rich man in a crowd. (Matthew 19:20-23)

I say that Jesus was saying what he said:

Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[discostu]

That's how I've always seen the Old Testament. One of the amusing tales from my wife's childhood involved her mother reading to her from the Old Testament and during one of God's smiting sessions my wife (age 5 at the time according to family appocrypha) interjected: "God sure is mean". A lot of people see the OT God as a God of smiting and vengeance. Might have something to do with episodes like the flood, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gemmorah, the Exodus, you know, little events of massive blood letting like that.