Posted on 06/07/2002 11:48:16 AM PDT by lews
I hate to say it, but it was awfuly queit in the islamic world when condemning Osama. Rushdie was quickly fatwa'd and millions of muslims, also the once in the UK and France, wanted him dead for smearing th name of islam.
When OBL smeared the name of islam and did things islam does not allow, where are the fatwas? Where are the millions of muslims taking to the streets to condemn these acts and to call the death of OBL for his actions?
And if I wanted to really smear you, I already would mention what the Ottomans did to the Armenians. I never did that. Nor I pinged anyone to such an article, where the Turks are protayed as crazy killers.
Yes, I blame islam, that is true. But it is time muslims deal with the maniac tendancies of their fellow muslims. All they did do is say that killing is opposed to islam, but never they did anything than protest the US attacking the Taliban. Time to act is now, but the moderates are doing nothing. The terror continues against Israel, with the support of muslims worldwide.
I have seen what the Arab media is saying about what has to be done to Jews and Americans. But somehow muslims never seem to protest loudly against the call for hate and armed jihad against unbelievers.
Yes, there are once that do, but only a few. Most muslims I encounter try to convince us they only want peace, but they forget to tell it to their fellow muslims.
It were no Buhddists, Hindus, Jews or Christians flying those planes or bombing people in Israel. The group-rapes in the Neterlands are not done by them. Neither does any of these groups call out for worldwide armed jihad like muslims do, or sell videos of Pearls behading.
Once this stops, I will too.
The terror continues against Israel, with the support of muslims worldwide.You know, perhaps I made a mistake by commenting to you. I thought that perhaps I was dealing with an intellectual, who could comprehend some intelligent analysis. But the line I excerpt from your response, sadly, really shows your level of comprehension of the socio-political machinations of the world at large.
I disturbs meMake that: "It" disturbs me.
But I must tell you this.
When I said to people that if muslim moderates would stop the violence of the militants, all this was not nessesary, I was attacked because of this little postive (to islam) comment.
9/11 would not have happened if the moderates stopped the madness long ago.
Christians also stopped their fellow Christians form doing things like slavery, long ago. Time for moderate muslims to do the same, then the hate will stop. But as long we are refered to as 'great satan', we will be angry too.
This needs to be bumped.
And anothe bump (somewhat later but really important)
In light of todays events. It is time for another bump for this one.
Just a friendly reminder.
ping for later
Ping for never forgetting whom we are fighting.
Criticism of Koran and categorizing violence as preached in Koran is correct. And its true that the personality of Jesus is violence-free like that of the Buddha. But the Bible is not free of violence - only the role of Jesus has been taken over by the Christian/Jewish God. After all, where did Koran get the idea of burning hell where humans will be roasted. And then again lets not forget Abraham who wanted to slaughter his own child. Hebrew prophets did get engaged in war and violence - e.g. David.
I just want to let you know what Abraham did was an allegiance to the Almighty. The Almighty was trying to test Abraham’s faith
I think it is hypocritical at best to pluck the beam out of someones eyes. Mohammad took upon himself a child as a wife. When the child was 9 years of age he consummated the marriage. The child did not even have her period yet and is subjected to that kind of torture by a Dirty Old Man like Mohammad. I am not condoning the behavior of sick and twisted catholic priest. It is just to edify and open your eyes. Just to let you know I am not a catholic. I am a Messianic Jew.
Never came across this when posted, marking to finish reading later.
ping
Needs to be bumped again.
I am a Bible theologian with a powerful means of communication to reach the world. The defensive warfare in the Koran is also found similarly in the Bible and should not be condemned. However, Mohammed exemplified his sin when he taught his followers to attack offensively to convert, much like David exemplified sin when he killed Bath-Sheeba’s husband for the conception of sin sexually. I’m not comparing the similarities of the sins but merely pointing out that Mohammed sinned as well as David and even Christ himself. We see that Christ sinned or evidence that He was not holy in 4 places in Scripture, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 19 and also when Christ called the Pharisees ‘dirty as wrotten sepulchres on the inside’ and violated the holy command: ‘let no unclean thing come out of your mouth’. The fourth is when Christ went into the temple overturning the moneychangers tables, he did not go in calling them ‘little buttercups’ or he would have suppressed his anger and it would have led to mental illness. Any professional in the psych industry knows that if you don’t vent properly with certain bad language that is actually good language depending on when you use it, then you will end up with psychiatric issues leading to mental illness. Having said that, Christ always chose the lesser of two sin paths when He committed these types of sins. I won’t get into the details of the other sin sides that he avoided. So Christ was without blemish in this regard, because He always chose good or great even while commiting the lesser of two sins. ‘For him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.’ ...is the Biblical definition of sin. There is a Trinity but it does not include Chirst as he was not holy. The Trinity includes, God, the Spirit, and the Word (logos, in the Greek). Christ and the Word are not the same in John 1:1. The word became flesh but they were not equivalent. The definition of ‘logos’ in the Greek is ‘the message’ or ‘communication’ from God. Much like our words are apart of us and we should be accountable for what we say, God’s word is a part of Him including the Truth in all God-inspired Scriptures or His word to us through revelation by way of the gifts of ‘word of knowledge’, or ‘word of wisdom’ found listed in I Corinthians.
Also, we need to recognize the Muslims as ‘believers’, but not the ones that murder to convert. When Christ said He was ‘the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but my me’, He was specifically referring to the physical location of the Father. He was not referring to exclusivity regarding the doctrine of salvation. Thomas the disciple was questioning Jesus as to where the physical location of the Father was as Christ was about to ascend there. Much of Islam is parallel Christianity, it’s just worded differently. The peace-loving Muslims are saved because they have faith in God and believe in good works as a bi-product of their true faith, just like God teaches in the Bible and also to the Mormons in the Book of Mormon. There is no verse in the Bible that says that other Scriptures in addition to the Bible are not inspired by God or acceptable to Him. The verse in Revelation at the end is speaking specifically to the Book of Revelation and not regarding the Bible as a whole. I believe in Christ’s death and ressurection as payment for sin and necessary for salvation because that’s my religion but the peace-loving Muslims are also saved because the Koran is God inspired. There will come a day though, where we will be united in one true doctrine of salvation similar to both Christianity’s and Islam’s doctrine which would only have to be slightly adjusted if at all. For the seventh one thousand years there will be a third testament for believers and the Muslims may do the same and add more Scriptures to their current text. There was an Old Testament for the first period, then New Testament for the next two thousand years and there WILL be another testament for the Millenial Reign, the last 1000 years on this planet. The doctrine of salvation was adjusted greatly from the OT to the NT and with the next testament, it may not be adjusted at all, but in Zechariah 2:11 it says that many nations will unite in the LORD and this occurs in the seventh 1000 years shortly after an upcoming exile of 70 years for his people that we will see, in addition to the one that took place in the OT. God says he has a right to spare us of this exile/captivity/migration as referred to all throughout the Minor Prophetic books and Jeremiah and Ezekiel (2 Major prophetic books). The murdering radical extremists can not be saved because muderers cannot enter into the kindom of heaven according to the Bible along with a list of others who make it a general practice to commit those types of sins. I hope this all makes sense. It is the truth and it is new and is part of the mysteries revealed in the end times and I’m not the only one that God’s shown this to. Blessings!
I wouldn’t call myself a “Bible theologian” as you would, I’m simply someone who has actually read the Bible and studied it for 20+ years.
Let’s start at the beginning.
1. “The defensive warfare in the Koran is also found similarly in the Bible and should not be condemned.”
This is a false statement that is easily rejected through word for word quotes from the Bible. Christians (literally “little Christ” or follower of Christ) were never taught by Christ to respond to persecution with violence. In fact, they are commanded to “turn the other cheek”, “pray for those who persecute you”, and “if at all possible, live peaceably with all men.” In the Old Testament, the nation of Israel defended themselves as a nation from invasion, but as a religious tenant, you cannot find anywhere in the Bible that God permits the use of violence to defend religion.
2. “We see that Christ sinned or evidence that He was not holy in 4 places in Scripture”
Another false and misleading statement.
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel” What is sinful here? It’s a prophecy predicting that Christ will be the son of both God and Man. Man and God in one body. There is no sin here, just immaculate conception.
Matt 19. Show me where Christ sinned in this chapter. I submit that you cannot.
3. “Christ called the Pharisees ‘dirty as wrotten sepulchres on the inside’ and violated the holy command: ‘let no unclean thing come out of your mouth’.”
Another misleading statement. When quoting Christ, you really should try using context instead of quoting just enough to try and make your point. In the case you are referring, he was using an analogy to illustrate the hypocrisy of the Pharisees who tried to look good on the outside but inside were rotten, prideful, arrogant, sinners. By calling them “whitewashed tombs” he was implying that they look good on the outside, but are really dead inside. As to his commandment, if speaking the truth about the hypocrisy of religious leaders is considered dirty, than you have a very unusual view of what constitutes unwholesome talk. It is very clear Christ was referring to foul language, dirty jokes, foolish speech, and other such obvious things.
4. “The fourth is when Christ went into the temple overturning the moneychangers tables, he did not go in calling them ‘little buttercups’ or he would have suppressed his anger and it would have led to mental illness.”
Another false statement. Christ did nothing in his anger to sin. There is no place in the Bible in which anger is a sin. It is a natural emotion. What we do in our anger can be sin. But for Jesus to call the money changers, “thieves” and “vipers” in no way constitutes a sin. Again, the temple was His father’ house, he had every right to cleans it, we see no evidence that he use any inappropriate or foul language or even reacted with physical violence towards any individual. Again, where is the sin here?
5. “Christ always chose the lesser of two sin paths when He committed these types of sins. “
I would direct your attention towards Philippians 2:5-11, Hebrews 2:9-18, 4:14-16 (with verse 15 being of interest)and 5:8,9. All of these verses directly contradict your statement that Jesus sinned the lesser of two sins.
6. “For him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.’ ...is the Biblical definition of sin.”
1 John 3:4-9 “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
So, lawlessness is the definition of sin, and as is explained in these verses, there is no such thing as small sin and big sin. It’s all sin. Christ did not sin, and did not practice the “lesser of two evils”. His who purpose was to be a perfect sacrifice and so by nature could not have had even a hint of evil in Him.
7. “There is a Trinity but it does not include Chirst as he was not holy”
I honestly do not get where this comes from. We’ve already established that Christ was actually holy and perfect. You cannot provide for me a place in the scripture that states that Christ is not part of the Trinity. It simply does not exist because it states specifically that he is. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Son...see it?
8. “The Trinity includes, God, the Spirit, and the Word (logos, in the Greek). Christ and the Word are not the same in John 1:1.”
Nice, logos, toss in a few Greek terms here and there and people think you’re a scholar. Let’s read John 1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God.” The Greek is very clear in what is is saying. There is no evidence in the original text that the term, “the Word was God” implies anything but what it says. The Word and God were one and the same. The Greek word Logos was used in many places in the New Testament to reference Christ.
9. “He was specifically referring to the physical location of the Father. He was not referring to exclusivity regarding the doctrine of salvation.”
Right, because taking what he said literally doesn’t prove your point. Instead we have to make an assumption based on silence in the Bible even though the Bible repeatedly states that only by confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord (Muslims do not do this), and believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead (they don’t do this either) you will be saved. You like Greek words, so lets check out the word for “the way”. It is hodos and is used commonly in the Greek to mean, a channel or means of achieving something. Continuing on we look at the Greek for “through” which is deeah and means again, to achieve a goal. These terms are used very often to imply not a literal road, but a figurative means to achieve a goal. Thomas’ question simply shows the lack of understanding he had for spiritual matters because he just assumes Christ is only referring to a physical place. But, the Bible makes it very clear over and over again that salvation comes only through the sacrifice of Jesus, belief that he is the one true God and the giving of oneself to his service.
10. “The peace-loving Muslims are saved because they have faith in God and believe in good works as a bi-product of their true faith, just like God teaches in the Bible”
I won’t comment on the “peace-loving” part because this comment is attached to a wonderful article about that. But, the Bible does not teach that faith in God is what saves you. In fact it says the opposite. The book of James talks about how even the demons believe in God but that does not save anyone. They even have faith that he is who he says he is. The Bible teaches that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Muslims do not believe this and do not make Jesus their Lord. According to the Bible, they will not be saved.
11. “the Koran is God inspired”
For a man who seems to enjoy logic, you don’t use it much. If the Koran, as this article proves, contradicts the very core values of the scripture: that Jesus and God are one, that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation, that Jesus was a perfect man who was born of the spirit, raised from the dead and is alive today, that apart from making Jesus your Lord there is no salvation and that the things Muhammad taught were sinful, then how can the Koran be God inspired? As the Bible says, he is “the same yesterday, today and forever.” No, God did not suddenly change his mind about salvation when the Koran was written.
12. Lots of claims about the end times.
None of which you have any actual proof of and are simply making theoretical statements because taking the scriptures literally doesn’t fit your worldview.
What we do know about the end times is this. (Phil 2:10,)”that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Not Allah, not Muhammad or anyone else. Jesus. An exact contradiction to the salvation message of Islam. The scriptures describe an end times in which those who do not follow Jesus, repent of their sin, turn from their ways and then and only then do they worship Jesus as the Lord of all the earth and the only way to salvation.
Although I do not believe it exists, I would encourage you to provide us with scriptural documentation of this “third testament” you seem to think will appear. It’s not in the Bible I have.
13. “The murdering radical extremists can not be saved because muderers cannot enter into the kindom of heaven according to the Bible along with a list of others who make it a general practice to commit those types of sins.”
They can be saved. Seriously, think about this logically. Saul who became Paul, murdered, persecuted and did all the same things to Christians as Islamic extremists and yet was saved, has his life changed, and became one of the most powerful preachers, teachers and missionaries history has ever seen. In fact, he wrote a majority of the books you reference in your arguments. The scripture says, “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.” (1 Tim 2:4-6)
Sin is sin, impurity is impurity. Christ cares not for the type of sin, He only cares that you confess your sin, repent of your sin, make Him Lord of your life, and follow Him. Sure, an unrepentant murderer won’t go to heaven, but neither will an unrepentant person who doesn’t honor their father or mother. It’s all sin.
Lastly I would leave those who read this comment with the following verses from Matthew 7
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. “So then, you will know them by their fruits. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
Muhammad was one of the mentioned false prophets. He taught a theology that as this article explained, directly contradicted the teachings of Christ in the Bible. He lead millions astray and it breaks my heart to think of all the lost souls he deceived with his lies.
Do not take what I have posted here as truth, instead research for yourself. Don’t just take what other people say. Everyone, like the comment I have replied to, has their own agenda they want to spread. Read the Bible yourself in context. If you’re confused about something it says, it is very easy to access translations of the original languages to find out exactly what it says. Greek is a very precise language that means exactly what it means, it’s not hard. Take the Bible for what it actually says, not what people think it says or what it to say. There is a very good reason the words that were chosen were used.
Islam is a religion in which God requires you to send your son to die for him. Christianity is a religion in which God sent his son to die for you.
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