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The Divine Trinity
The Rosary Light & Life ^ | By Father Paul A. Duffner, O.P.

Posted on 07/15/2002 9:48:49 PM PDT by JMJ333

One of the first things that a Catholic mother teaches her young child in the way of prayer is the sign of the cross. She shows the young one how to bless himself, while at the same time pronouncing the names of the three divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity. While the child at that age may understand little of the words pronounced, there will come in time a gradual awareness of this great mystery of our faith; for throughout one's life as a Catholic there will be frequent references in prayer, in the reception of the sacraments and in the liturgy to the Blessed Trinity.

The mystery of the Trinity is the very foundation of our Catholic faith. The Apostles' Creed is simply a brief expression of our faith in the three divine Persons. The history of our salvation rests upon the mystery of the Trinity. For God the FATHER sent His only-begotten Son into the world to redeem us. The SON gave his life in accomplishing that work of redemption; and the HOLY SPIRIT brings about the sanctification of each individual soul, by applying to the soul the graces merited by Christ's redeeming sacrifice. Our Christian life began when we were baptized in the name of those three divine Persons.

A PROFOUND MYSTERY

While we presume to write about the divine Trinity, we must confess that we are dealing with a mystery that no human or angelic mind can comprehend. Even St. Paul, who "was caught up to third heaven... and heard secret words that no man can repeat" (2 Cor.12:2) declared: "O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable are his ways" (Rom.11:33). Because of the vastness of this topic, these reflections can be only the barest outline.

By the light of reason alone man can arrive at the knowledge of the existence of a supreme being who is responsible for the order in the universe; but he could never arrive at a knowledge that in the one true God there are three Persons. And even after Christ revealed it, it is still for us an incomprehensible mystery. We believe this truth because God has revealed it to us. But to understand how it is so, we will have to await God's fuller revelation of Himself in the life to come. Nevertheless, the first Vatican Council assures us that human reason illumined by faith, can attain with God's help some fruitful understanding of this supernatural mystery.

A comparison between the human and the divine might shed some light on our enquiry. James, John and Peter are three distinct persons. Each one is endowed with his own human nature. Each one thinks and wills with his own individual intellect and will. James doesn't think with Peter's intellect, nor does James choose or command with John's will. They are three human persons with three distinct human natures, each with his own individual faculty of knowing and willing.

In the divine Trinity, however, while there are three distinct Persons, there is only one divine nature. The inner life of God is that of infinite knowledge and love. God knows infinitely, and loves infinitely; but all three divine Persons know and love with one and the same divine mind and divine will. And, as we shall see, from that infinite inner life of knowing and loving there issues the relationships on which the distinction between the divine Persons is based.

NOTE: Lest this be a source of confusion as regards Christ, the Redeemer, He is a divine Person having two natures, one divine and one human. It was His human will submitting to the divine will when He said: "Father, not my will, but yours be done" (Lk. 22:42).

THE MYSTERY REVEALED IN SCRIPTURE

A) Old Testament: The Old Testament does contain allusions to the Trinity, but they are so vague that before the coming of Christ no one was aware of their meaning. For example, the plurality of persons is implied in Genesis: "Let Us make man in Our image and likeness" (1:19). "Let Us then go down and there confuse their language" (11:17). And in the triple invocation Isaiah heard the Seraphim cry: "Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord God of Hosts, all the earth is full of His glory" (6:3).

B) New Testament:

Message of Archangel Gabriel: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; hence, the holy offspring to be born will be called Son of God" (Lk.1:35).

At the baptism of Jesus: "After Jesus was baptized, he came directly out of the water. Suddenly the sky opened and he saw the Spirit of God descend like a dove and hover over him. With that, a voice from heaven (the Father's) said: 'This is my beloved Son. My favor rests on him' " (Mt.3:16).

At the Last Supper: "The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will instruct you in everything, and remind you of all that I told you" (Jn. 14:26).

Before the Ascension: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations. Baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt. 28:19).

THE INNER LIFE OF GOD

Since our faith tells us that there are three divine Persons in God, and since God had no beginning, the question comes to mind: why precisely three Persons, and what is the relationship between them? The Scriptures speak of the Father as the creator and source of all things. But he could not have created the Son and the Holy Spirit, otherwise they would be creatures, and not God. We know from our faith that they are divine Persons co-equal and co-eternal with the Father.

We find the answer to the origin of the Son and the Holy Spirit in the Church's teaching that in God there are two internal divine processions. The word procession is used here to mean the origin of one from another . . . one proceeding from another. And we speak of "internal" processions - referring to the inner life of God, as opposed to "external" procession, which refers to God's action in regard to creatures. Both the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT proceed from an imminent act of the Holy Trinity, i.e. from an internal divine procession by which one divine Person originates from another communicating totally one and the same divine essence. We shall see, however, that the manner of origin of the SON differs from that of the HOLY SPIRIT, because of the two diverse internal Processions in God. For example:

The origin of the SON is by way of generation. The Father begetting the Son by an eternal act of contemplating his own divine essence. The origin of the HOLY SPIRIT is by way of spiration. From the mutual and infinitely ardent mutual love of the Father and the Son there issues forth as from a single source a living FLAME OF LOVE which is a divine Person, the Holy Spirit, sharing perfectly in every way the divine nature of the Father and the Son. We will consider a bit more in detail these two internal processions that constitute the inner life of God.

THE ORIGIN OF THE SON

When we speak of Father and Son in God, we have to keep in mind that God is a pure spirit, having no body. Consequently we must be careful not to confuse generation in God with the use of that term in regard to human generation. But even in human language we speak of conception as a mental process as well as physical. A woman conceives a child . . . and any adult can conceive an idea. "Who conceived that brilliant idea?" someone might ask.

It is in this spiritual sense that we speak of begetting in God. God the Father, whose knowledge and capacity of knowing is infinite, contemplates eternally His own divine being, His own divine essence. The IDEA or IMAGE or MENTAL WORD conceived of Himself in His own divine mind is an absolutely perfect living representation of the Father. This living image of Himself which the Father has been begetting from all eternity is a divine Person distinct from the Father. Sharing one and the same divine nature as the Father, He is the Father's only-begotten Son. As St. Paul expressed it: "This Son is the reflection of the Father's glory, the exact representation of the Father's being" (Heb.1:3).

THE ORIGIN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

We have no problem forming a mental image of the SON who became man, for many details of His life have been recorded for us. And we can in a vague way have a mental image in our imagination of the Father of whom our Blessed Lord spoke many times, and whose voice was heard at the baptism and transfiguration of His divine Son. But the images that the Scriptures give us of the Holy Spirit are only that of a dove at the baptism of our Lord, and of tongues of fire at Pentecost. Yet, the Holy Spirit is a divine Person distinct from the Father and Son, and sharing perfectly their divine nature.

The inner life of God is not only one of infinite knowledge from which comes forth the WORD BEGOTTEN, but one of infinite love from which comes forth the HOLY SPIRIT. Because the SON possesses the infinite perfection of goodness, knowledge, holiness, beauty and power of the Father, both divine Persons behold the infinite lovableness of each other. Yet, it is the function of love to reach out for what is lovable, and to give oneself without reserve to the one loved. There is a reflection of this in human love. However, the love of the FATHER for the SON, and of the SON for the FATHER is so perfect, and so complete is their giving of self, that there issues forth an infinite expression of this love in a living Person, co-eternal and co-equal with the Father and the Son. The Scriptures call this third divine Person the Holy Spirit because He is "breathed forth" by the love of the Father and the Son. As the Roman Catechism expresses it, the Holy-Spirit "proceeds from the divine will inflamed, as it were, with love."

THE EXTERNAL ACTIVITIES OF THE TRINITY So far we have been considering the interior activities, or the inner life, of the three divine Persons. The exterior activities of the Trinity are those, the term of which is outside of God, i.e. those that affect creatures. It is the teaching of the Church that all exterior activities of God are common to the three divine Persons. Any act of God on the created world is an act of the three divine Persons acting as a single principle. As St. Thomas explains, "to produce any effect in creatures is common to the whole Trinity, by reason of the oneness of their nature; since where there is one nature there must be one power and one operation" (III,23,3).

The external works of the Blessed Trinity are usually classified under three categories: the work of creation, of redemption and of sanctification. And even though, as we have just seen, all three divine Persons share in all of these external works, the Scriptures attribute the work of creation to the Father, of redemption to the Son, and of sanctification to the Holy Spirit. The attributing to individual divine Persons activities and qualities that pertain to all three Persons is referred to by theologians as APPROPRIATION. This is done to help clarify in our minds the distinction of the divine Persons themselves, and to shed some meager light on this unfathomable mystery. With this in view we will consider briefly each of the divine Persons.

THE FATHER

Since the Father does not proceed from any other source, we think of Him as the origin of all things, as one of great power in producing all that exists. So the quality of omnipotence is attributed to Him. Thus the Church refers to Him in the Apostles' Creed as "the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth."

To the Father is attributed the wonderful Providence with which God cares for all that He has created, and especially for man made to His image and likeness. "Your Providence, Father, pilots all things" (Wis. 14:3). "Do not be anxious . . . your Father knows that you need all these things" (Mt.7:32). "Our Father who art in heaven. . . . Give us this day. . ." (Mt. 6:9).

THE SON Since the Son proceeds from the Father by way of knowledge as the perfect Image of the Father, there is attributed to the Son truth, wisdom and the order of the universe. Both His life and teaching are an expression of divine wisdom which, to the world, often appears as foolishness. "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" (Jn. 14:6).

However, the human nature assumed in the Incarnation of the Word is not an appropriation. The second Person of the Trinity did assume human nature, and the Father and the Holy Spirit did not. Yet every act of the God-man, who is a divine Person, proceeds from divine omnipotence under the direction of divine wisdom and inspired by divine love, all of which are common to the three divine Persons acting as a single principle.

THE HOLY SPIRIT Because the Holy Spirit proceeds from the mutual love of the Father and the Son, works that are an expression of God's love are attributed to the Holy Spirit. Thus everything that contributes to our sanctification, every outpouring of divine grace, is attributed to the Holy Spirit. "The charity of God is poured forth into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who has been given to us" (Rom. 5:5).

It is clear from the Scriptures that God wishes us to use the appropriation of certain works to individual Persons of the Trinity to help clarify the distinctive characteristics of each of the three divine Persons. Our Lord Himself frequently spoke in such terms. Yet, as we have pointed out, although we attribute works of power, wisdom and love to different divine Persons, everything that happens in the world does so by the power, wisdom and love of all three divine Persons. Even the evil that befalls us is permitted by God's love, because in His infinite wisdom He can bring good out of evil.

A REASON FOR HOPE

In God's care for the world His infinite power, wisdom and love are inseparable. Nothing happens in this world that is not brought about or allowed by the will of God, i.e. of the three divine Persons. If we live by our faith and trust in the Holy Trinity, we will remember that God permits only what is for our ultimate good. How could it be otherwise when infinite wisdom directs and infinite love inspires all that is brought about or permitted by God's almighty power?

Our life is so intimately bound up with this greatest of mysteries, that it is of great importance that we realize its impact on our whole existence. God has made known this great mystery to us that we might have unfailing hope throughout life. No matter what befalls us, God can bring good out of every situation because His power, directed by His wisdom and love, is ordering the course of our life.

What a comfort it should be in times of distress, when the future looks bleak, when temptation increases, when sickness or injury is our lot, to know that we are sustained by the wisdom, love and power of God Himself. But this peace of mind and heart presupposes a deep faith that makes us aware of these truths, a trust that never doubts that God knows best, and a love that always says "yes" to God's dealing with us.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; trinity
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1 posted on 07/15/2002 9:48:49 PM PDT by JMJ333
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"The Substance of the Trinity is, so to say, a common Essence in that which is distinct, an incomprehensible, ineffable Substance. We hold the distinction, not the confusion of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; a distinction without separation; a distinction without plurality; and thus we believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as each existing from and to eternity in this divine and wonderful Mystery: not in two Fathers, nor in two Sons, nor in two Spirits. For there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by Whom are all things, and we by Him.' There is One born of the Father, the Lord Jesus, and therefore He is the Only-begotten. There is also One Holy Spirit,' as the same Apostle hath said. So we believe,so we read, so we hold. We know the fact of distinction, we know nothing of the hidden mysteries; we pry not into the causes, but keep the outward signs vouchsafed unto us."
Ambrose,On the Christian Faith,8:92(A.D. 380)
2 posted on 07/15/2002 9:52:47 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: *Catholic_list
"All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God, have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality; and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity.

Yet not that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and roseburied,, again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that, on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,' the same Trinity sat upon each of them with cloven tongues like as of fire,' but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven, Thou art my Son,' whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, I have both glorified it,and will glorify it again;' but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son; although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith." Augustine,On the Trinity,I:4,7(A.D. 416)

3 posted on 07/15/2002 9:56:52 PM PDT by JMJ333
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Goldhammer
Thank you. =)
5 posted on 07/15/2002 10:04:16 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: foolscap; PA Lurker; polemikos
*
6 posted on 07/15/2002 10:06:40 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
What a comfort it should be in times of distress, when the future looks bleak, when temptation increases, when sickness or injury is our lot, to know that we are sustained by the wisdom, love and power of God Himself. But this peace of mind and heart presupposes a deep faith that makes us aware of these truths, a trust that never doubts that God knows best, and a love that always says "yes" to God's dealing with us.

How blessed we are!

What a lovely thread, thank you!

7 posted on 07/15/2002 10:20:59 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: american colleen
You're welcome! Good to see you.
8 posted on 07/15/2002 10:26:22 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Goldhammer; JMJ333
Trinity bump!
9 posted on 07/15/2002 10:31:10 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Thanks! I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit after a debate last week on the subject and the argument presented was that they had a different interpretation of the bible. But as I pointed out, the Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise. If look at the 27 books of the New Testament You won’t find any that spell out the elements of the faith the way catechisms do or even the way the ancient creeds did. Those 27 books were written **for the most part** as provisional documents addressed to particular audiences for particular purposes. Most of the epistles were written to local churches that were experiencing moral and/or doctrinal problems.
10 posted on 07/15/2002 10:40:58 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
References of the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed. Most have to do with scholars, teachers and doctors of the church, but there are some Biblical references.

I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary
Under Pontius Pilate He was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

   ENDNOTES

   1 DV 2; cf. Col 1:15; I Tim 1:17; Ex 33:11; Jn 15:14-15; Bar 3:38 (Vulg.).
   2 Cf. DV 5.

   3 Cf. Rom 1:5; 16:26.

   4 Heb 11:8; cf. Gen 12:1-4.

   5 Cf. Gen 23:4.

   6 Cf. Heb 11:17.

   7 Heb 11:1.

   8 Rom 4:3; cf. Gen 15:6.
   9 Rom 4:11, 18; 4:20; cf. Gen 15:5.

   10 Heb 11:2, 39.

   11 Heb 11:40; 12:2.
   12 Lk 1:37-38; cf. Gen 18:14.

   13 Lk 1:45.

   14 Cf. Lk 1:48.

   15 Cf. Lk 2:35.

   16 2 Tim 1:12.

   17 Cf. Jer 17:5-6; Pss 40:5; 146:3-4.

   18 Mk 1:11; cf. 9:7

   19 Jn 14:1.

   20 Jn 1:18.

   21 Jn 6:46; cf. Mt 11:27.

   22 I Cor 12:3.

   23 I Cor 2:10-11.

   24 Mt 16:17; cf. Gal 1:15; Mt 11:25.

   25 DV 5; cf. DS 377; 3010.

   26 Dei Filius: 3: DS 3008.

   27 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 2, 9; cf Dei Filius 3; DS 3010.

   28 Dei Filius: 3 DS 3008.

   29 Dei Filius: 3 DS 3009.

   30 Dei Filius: 3: DS 3008-3010; Cf. Mk 16 20; Heb 2:4.

   31 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II 171, 5, obj. 3.

   32 John Henry Cardinal Newman, Apologia pro vita sua (London Longman,
   1878) 239.

   33 St. Anselm, Prosl. prooem. PL 153 225A.

   34 Eph 1:18.

   35 DV 5.

   36 St. Augustine, Sermo 43, 7, 9: PL 38, 257-258.

   37 Dei Filius 4: DS 3017.

   38 GS 36 # 1.
   39 DH 10; cf. CIC, can. 748 # 2.

   40 DH 11.

   41 DH 11; cf. Jn 18:37; 12:32.

   42 Cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:36; 6:40 et al.

   43 Dei Filius 3: DS 3012; cf. Mt 10:22; 24: 13 and Heb 11:6; Council of
   Trent: DS 1532.

   44 1 Tim 1:18-19.

   45 Cf. Mk 9:24; Lk 17:5; 22:32

   46 Gal 5:6; Rom 15:13; cf. Jas 2:14-26.

   47 1 Cor 13:12; I Jn 3:2.

   48 St. Basil De Spiritu Sancto 15, 36: PG 32, 132; cf. St. Thomas Aquinas,
   STh II-II, 4, 1.

   49 2 Cor 5:7.

   50 l Cor 13:12.

   51 Rom 4:18.

   52 LG 58; John Paul II, RMat 18.

   53 Heb 12:1-2. Article 2

   54 Roman Ritual, Rite of Baptism of Adults.

   55 Faustus of Riez, De Spiritu Sancto 1, 2: PL 62, II.

   56 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II, 1,2, ad 2.

   57 I Tim 3:15; Jude 3.

   58 Cf. Eph 4:4-6.

   59 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. I, 10, 1-2: PG 7/1, 549-552.

   60 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. I, 10, 1-2: PG 7/1, 552-553.

   61 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 5, 20, I: PG 7/2, 1177.
   62 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3, 24, I: PG 7/1, 966.

11 posted on 07/15/2002 10:57:03 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333

II. "I KNOW WHOM I HAVE BELIEVED"[16]

To believe in God alone

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.[17]

To believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God

151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him.[18] The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me."[19] We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."[20] Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.[21]

To believe in the Holy Spirit

152 One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For "no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit",[22] who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God."[23] Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God.

The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

12 posted on 07/15/2002 11:05:59 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333
19 Jn 14:1. 20 Jn 1:18.

21 Jn 6:46; cf. Mt 11:27.

22 I Cor 12:3.

23 I Cor 2:10-11.

13 posted on 07/15/2002 11:09:47 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
"Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . There is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 [A.D. 110].
14 posted on 07/15/2002 11:12:02 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Salvation
Actually the footnotes under the Creeds are the correct references. Sorry.
15 posted on 07/15/2002 11:12:58 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" Letter of Barnabas 5 [A.D. 74].

And the early Christians were quick to recognize heresies. Anyone that taught the contradiction the historic faith of the Church, was quickly excommunicated.

16 posted on 07/15/2002 11:17:59 PM PDT by JMJ333
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation
No problem. =)
18 posted on 07/15/2002 11:18:27 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
The Trinity
19 posted on 07/15/2002 11:27:28 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333
God in Three Persons
20 posted on 07/15/2002 11:30:34 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Goldhammer
A good teaching (very clear) on the Trinity is found in the Athanasian Creed.

This is wonderful. I will bookmark this page.

And I think it is time for me to finally go to bed.

Good night and God bless.

21 posted on 07/15/2002 11:32:48 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: EODGUY
I didn't ping you last night! I can't imagine why. An overt case of silliness.

Anyway, I thought you might enjoy this thread. Regards.

22 posted on 07/16/2002 10:37:52 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Excellent post, thank you for bringing it to my attention.

EODGUY
23 posted on 07/16/2002 4:50:50 PM PDT by EODGUY
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To: EODGUY
You're welcome! Better late than never...hehehe
24 posted on 07/16/2002 5:01:44 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Thank you for an excellent post..it is very timely:>)
25 posted on 07/16/2002 6:02:21 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
hehehehe...albeit a subtle tactic...you know me too well lol
26 posted on 07/16/2002 6:06:31 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Salvation
Thanks Salvation I am going to move that over to the neverending thread if it is ok?
27 posted on 07/16/2002 6:15:59 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: JMJ333
Well links have been given. Thank you sister :>)
28 posted on 07/16/2002 6:20:25 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Anytime. ;)
29 posted on 07/16/2002 6:24:02 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Salvation
Great teaching all thanks all saved for future reference
30 posted on 07/16/2002 6:26:49 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: JMJ333
Discussion on EWTN about Trinity and Marriage right now.

Ping!

31 posted on 07/17/2002 2:34:43 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: RnMomof7
Moving something over to the Neverending Thread.

No problem. Ping me so I can find it. LOL! When will they start a new thread? 200,0000?

32 posted on 07/17/2002 2:38:45 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Who knows...but your post was so timely....God does work ya know:>)
33 posted on 07/17/2002 2:46:23 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: JMJ333
Talking about a book by Scotot Hahn, First Comes Family.
34 posted on 07/17/2002 2:47:47 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: RnMomof7
God does work ya know

THIS is true, thank you God. LOL!

35 posted on 07/17/2002 2:50:36 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333; american colleen; Askel5
Talking about the Catholic Church as a final family. Interesting theory.

On EWTN now.

36 posted on 07/17/2002 2:56:23 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
Covenant family

I believe in the Father

The Son<>P>And the Holy Spirit.

37 posted on 07/17/2002 2:57:46 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation
First Comes Love by Scott Hahn - Doubleday
38 posted on 07/17/2002 2:58:59 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333
A Trinitarian Bump
39 posted on 07/17/2002 3:09:50 PM PDT by Siobhan
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To: Siobhan; Salvation
Thanks. Just got home, so I missed the ewtm special. =(
40 posted on 07/17/2002 5:42:30 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Salvation; JMJ333
I'm bummed I missed the presentation as well. Thanks for pinging me to this thread however.

A related link you both might find interesting:

What are We ... Spouse, Child, Citizen ... to Make of Christ?.

41 posted on 07/17/2002 6:18:11 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: Askel5
The fabulous Peter Kreeft. Thanks for linking it. =)
42 posted on 07/17/2002 6:23:36 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Askel5
That is a beautiful thread. I tried to post to it, but it is temporarily disabled because of the date is was posted. Thanks again. Great read.
43 posted on 07/17/2002 6:53:22 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Maybe we could copy it and repost it.
44 posted on 07/18/2002 12:14:57 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333
Your #10: I have been thinking about this subject quite a bit after a debate last week on the subject and the argument presented was that they had a different interpretation of the bible. But as I pointed out, the Bible is not a catechism or a full-scale theological treatise.

True, but if you are not careful in writing such a treatise, you can quickly depart from the Bible and go off in another direction, as they did in Nicea when trying to counter Arius.

I don't disagree at all with the Apostles' Creed (see #11), but the homoousion (one Being, one substance) in the Nicene Creed is not Biblical, and has led millions of Christians astray over the centuries, as far as having a correct understanding of the nature of God. It is not appropriate to elevate a creed, which is not the Word of God, to the level of Scripture.

We need to stick to the Word of God and to the apostles and prophets who have authority from God to write Scripture.

From the "God in Three Persons" link in #20: Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One office of a person cannot go to be with another office of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).

This argument against Modalism is an excellent argument against homoousion: "Because the Nicene Creed asserts that there is only one Being (or substance, Greek homoousios) in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages ..."

There are some important Bible passages that should be stressed:

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jesus explains how They are One:

John 17: 20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

They are separate Individuals (as in post #4) in three different places at the baptism of Jesus:

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

We are created in the image of God, male and female. This should be understood literally, not in the sense of spiritual image or moral image. It means we look like Him because He made us that way:

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

In both cases this is God the Father talking to God the Son, one Individual speaking to Another:

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:28
28 And I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil; and now lest he put forth his hand and partake also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever,

Stephen saw them as separate Individuals just before he died:

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on [at] the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Now regarding John 4:24, Spirit is an attribute of God just as Love and Truth are. We are certainly not expected to leave our physical bodies to worship Him in spirit.

1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 4:24
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

My post to Gophack

LDS Topical Guide: Corporeal Nature of God

(I wouldn't call this a debate, especially not on such a gentle thread as this. I much prefer a cordial discussion.)

45 posted on 07/22/2002 3:28:04 AM PDT by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
Cordial discussion it is! And I thank you for the opportunity.

True, but if you are not careful in writing such a treatise, you can quickly depart from the Bible and go off in another direction, as they did in Nicea when trying to counter Arius.

That was my point entirely. The bible isn't a full scale treatise. Most of the epistles, were written to local churches that were experiencing moral and/or doctrinal problems. Paul and most of the other New Testament writers sent letters to these local churches (e.g., 1 and 2 Corinthians and Galatians) in order to rectify these problems. There was no attempt on the part of the writers to impart a vast body of basic doctrinal instruction to non-believers nor even to simply summarize everything for the believers who received the letters. The New Testament is not the entire basis of the Christian faith since the Christian faith existed and flourished for years before the first book of the New Testament was written. The books of the New Testament were composed decades after Christ ascended into heaven, and it took centuries for there to be general agreement among Christians as to which books comprised the New Testament.

The council of Nicea, held in 325, simply affirmed Christ's divinity. And the Nicene Creed, which we still say today is the tenets of what we believe, and what the doctors of the church believed even before Arius.

The only reason you and I have the New Testament canon is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the Catholic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon. [I can almost see some of our more fundamental brethren shuddering with disgust! lol]

The Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419). We accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical.

But again, the Bishops and doctors of the church promulgated doctrine before the gospels were even recognized. You mirror the Protestant claim that the Bible [excepting the book of mormon which I am purposely excluding for it has no bearing on the teachings of the Trinity] is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true "rule of faith"—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

46 posted on 07/22/2002 6:28:19 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: White Mountain
I broke this into several posts so it wouldn't be so hard on the eyes. =)

Now, for those who reject catholic tradition the case can still be made in the New Testament.

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

In this passage, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are said to share one name (notice that the term "name" is singular, not plural), and that name is almost certainly Yahweh, the personal name of God in the Bible. We know this because the name Yahweh is applied to both the Father and the Son in the New Testament.

Peter tells us, "David did not ascend into the heavens; but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies a stool for your feet.’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:34–36). Here God is "the Lord" who speaks to "my Lord," Jesus. When one looks at the Old Testament quotation, one finds, "Yahweh says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool’" (Ps. 110:1); so here the Father is called Yahweh.

In Philippians 2:10–11, we read: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." This is a reference to Isaiah 45:18–24, which tells us: "I, Yahweh, speak the truth . . . I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn. . . . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. ‘Only in Yahweh,’ it shall be said of me, ‘are righteousness and strength.’ " Here Paul applies the prophecy of every knee bending and every tongue confessing to Jesus, resulting in the prophecy that they will "confess that Jesus Christ is Yahweh." The stress on Christ as God is also picked up by the early Church Fathers.

Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh ("I AM," in English translation). In John 8:58, when questioned about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." His audience understood exactly who he was claiming to be. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

With the personal name of God, Yahweh, being applied to both the Father and the Son, it is almost certainly applied to the Spirit, and thus to all three members of the Trinity.

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

And in my last post I will include some quotes by the fathers of the Church.

47 posted on 07/22/2002 6:33:33 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: White Mountain
Notice that these teachings were promulgated before the New Testament came into existance. Scripture existed, but it hadn't been decided as yet what to include in the Canon. Still, the teaching was very clear on what early Christians thought about the Trinity.

Ignatius of Antioch

"To the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr

"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus

"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

Origen

"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist" (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however that there was never a time when he did not exist is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity" (ibid.).

"For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (ibid.).

Hippolytus

"The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Novatian

"For Scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man; nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God. . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God" (Treatise on the Trinity 11 [A.D. 235]).

48 posted on 07/22/2002 6:41:29 AM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
You really should provide your sources (for #47 and #48, the link in post #19).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints places strong emphasis on authority from God to speak and act in His Name, as Catholics do. Throughout the Bible, apostles and prophets were called of God to speak for God and to write what He commanded them to write. That is how our Bible came to be. The Lord still works in the same way today.

He gave the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter, His chief apostle, and where the apostles are not, the Keys of the Kingdom are not.

The Lord led a handful of Israelites across the ocean to the Americas around 600 BC, just before Nebuchadnezzar carried the Kingdom of Judah off to Babylon. He raised up prophets among them, and commanded them to write. The Savior visited them, some of His "other sheep", after His resurrection and ascension, and they wrote an account of His visit. An abridgement of what their prophets wrote over a thousand-year period was brought forth by the gift and power of God in modern times through a true apostle of Jesus Christ and prophet of God, who has authority to baptize and officiate in all other ordinances of the Gospel.

Authority to speak and act for God is a very important thing with us, not only to baptize, bestow the Gift of the Holy Spirit, and have the inspiration to interpret the Scripture we have, but to bring forth new Scripture, as the Lord commands, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as they did in Biblical times.

These are evidences that the Lord works the same way today as He did in times of old, as the Holy Spirit bears witness.

49 posted on 07/23/2002 3:19:10 AM PDT by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
Its the same source as I got the Mormon information. James Akin-- even the quotes. He is a master apologist. And it is already linked and easy to find. All the info on the thread is laid out for easy access.

Now, there is nothing in your answers that refutes what he says, or the article. Mormon view on the Trinity is clearly different from Orthodox Christian doctrine, but you already knew that.

50 posted on 07/23/2002 5:48:23 AM PDT by JMJ333
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