Christ Died For Me But Not for You: Did He Die for All or ONLY a Preselected Few?

SALVATION

Unlimited Salvation

Limited Salvation

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men..." (1 Tim. 4:10a).

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...

"The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1 John 4:14; compare John 12:47).

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17; and compare Matt. 18:11; Luke 9:56; 19:10; 1 Tim. 1:15).

"We know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42).

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9).

"For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world" (John 6:33).

"...if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is My flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (John 6:51).

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men..." (Tit. 2:11a).

Also compare Acts 4:12 and Acts 5:31.

"...specially (especially, particularly) of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10b).

"...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16b).

"God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him" (1 John 4:9).

"And thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people (Israel) from their sins" (Matt. 1:21).

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31).

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

"I have much people in this city" (Acts 18:10).

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9).

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47).

"For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom. 10:13).

"...teaching us...looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2:12b-13).

"but unto us which are saved" (1 Cor. 1:18).

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him" (Heb. 5:9).

"He that hath the Son hath life" (1 John 5:12).

REDEMPTION

Unlimited Redemption

(Universal Redemption)

Limited Redemption

(Particular Redemption)

"Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

"Who gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:6 and compare verse 1-"all men," and verse 4-"all men").

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Hebrews 2:9).

"There shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1).

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all" (Isaiah 53:6).

Compare John 12:32-33 (John 3:14)

"He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb. 9:12).

"In whom we have redemption through His blood" (Col. 1:14).

"For ye are bought with a price" (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

"Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity" (Tit. 2:14).

"But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us...redemption" (1 Cor. 1:30).

"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24).

See also Romans 4:25; 14:15; 1 Corinthians 8:11; John 10:11; Acts 20:28; Revelation 1:5; Galatians 1:4; 3:13; Ephesians 5:25; 1 Thess. 5:10; Hebrews 1:3; 1 Peter 2:24.

RECONCILIATION

Unlimited Reconciliation

(Universal Reconciliation)

Limited Reconciliation

(Particular Reconciliation)

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:19)

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18)

"We pray (beg) you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2 Corinthians 5:20)

PROPITIATION

Unlimited Propitiation

(Universal Propitiation)

Limited Propitiation

(Particular Propitiation)

"...and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

"And He is the propitiation for our sins..." (1 John 2:2a).

If anything, we sure do cover alot of ground ma - hopefully we both pickup something along the way

61 posted on 07/23/2002 1:03:32 PM PDT by Revelation 911

To: whenigettime

Your view would most likely be categorized as Arminian. Freepmail me if you would like an explanation of the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism. Your comparison is reasonable, although the people in this thread would most likely extend the debate to why the others chose not to get on board (or if they even had the capacity to choose in the first place).

Regardless of your position on these issues, don't let anyone here challenge your salvation based on what you say. If you believe upon the Lord and can see the work of the Spirit in you and through you, you know your name is in the Lamb's Book of Life. Nobody in here can take that away!:)

62 posted on 07/23/2002 1:05:26 PM PDT by Frumanchu

Predestination is a Biblical truth (see Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5,11). The debate is over how we understand the workings of it in relationship to salvation. Predestination in and of itself is a Biblical fact.

Amen! We are all believe in predestination.

63 posted on 07/23/2002 1:19:28 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration

Here is John Fletcher explaining Wesley's views on unlimited atonment and salvation.

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Fletcher/1stCk.htm

4. But this is not all: he holds also general redemption, and its necessary consequences, which some account dreadful heresies. He asserts with St. Paul, that "Christ, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man;" and this grace he calls free, as extending itself freely to all. Nor can he help expressing his surprise at those pious ministers who maintain that the Savior keeps his grace, as they suppose he kept his blood, from the greatest part of mankind, and yet engross to themselves the title of preachers of FREE grace!

He frequently observes, with the same apostle, that "Christ is the Savior of all men, but especially of them that believe;" and that "God will have all men to be saved," consistently with their moral agency, and the tenor of his Gospel.

With St. John he maintains that "God is love," and that "Christ is the propitiation not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world." With David he affirms that "God's mercy is over all his works:" and with St. Peter, that "the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;" yea, that God, without hypocrisy, "commandeth all men, every where, to repent." Accordingly he says with the Son of God, "Whosoever will, let him come and take of the water of life freely;" and after his blessed example, as well as by his gracious command, he "preaches the Gospel TO every creature;" which he apprehends would be inconsistent with common honesty, if there were not a Gospel FOR every creature. Nor can he doubt of it in the least, when he considers that Christ is a king as well as a priest; that we are under a law to him; that those men who "will not have him to reign over them, shall be brought and slain before him;" yea, that he will "judge the secrets of men," according to St. Paul's Gospel, and take vengeance on all them that obey not his own Gospel, and be the author of eternal salvation to none but them that obey him. With this principle, as with a key given us by God himself, he opens those things which are "hard to be understood," in the Epistles of St. Paul, and "which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do some other scriptures, if not to their own destruction, at least to the overthrowing of the faith of some" weak Christians, and the hardening of many, very many infidels.

As a true son of the Church of England, he believes that "Christ redeemed him and all mankind;" that "for us men," and not merely for the elect, "he came down from heaven, and made upon the cross a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world." Like an honest man, and yet a man of sense, he so subscribed the seventeenth article as not to reject the thirty-first, which he thinks of equal force, and much more explicit; and, therefore, as the seventeenth article authorizes him, he "receives God's promises in suchwise as they are generally set forth in holy Scripture;" rejecting, after the example of our governors in Church and state, the Lambeth articles, in which the doctrine of absolute unconditional election and reprobation was maintained, and which some Calvinistic divines, in the days of Queen Elizabeth, vainly attempted to impose upon these kingdoms, by adding them to the thirty-nine articles. Far, therefore, from thinking he does not act a fair part in rejecting the doctrine of particular redemption, he cannot conceive by what salve the consciences of those ministers, who embrace it, can permit them to say to each of their communicants, "The blood of Christ was shed for thee;" and to baptize promiscuously all children within their respective parishes, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," when all that are unredeemed have no more right to the blood, name, and Spirit of Christ, than Lucifer himself.

Thus far Mr. Wesley agrees with Arminius, because he thinks that illustrious divine agreed thus far with the Scriptures, and all the early fathers of the Church. But if Arminius, (as the author of Pietas Oxoniensis affirms, in his letter to Dr. Adams,) "denied, that man's nature is totally corrupt; and asserted, that he hath still* a freedom of will to turn to God, but not without the assistance of grace," Mr. Wesley is no Arminian; for he strongly asserts the total fall of man, and constantly maintains that by nature man's will is only free to evil, and that Divine grace must first prevent, and then continually farther him, to make him willing and able to turn to God.

* [This is worded in so ambiguous a manner, as to give readers room to think that Arminius held man hath a will to turn to God before grace prevents (goes before) him, and only wants some Divine assistance to finish what nature has power to begin. In this sense of the words it is I deny Mr. Wesley is an Arminian.]

I must, however, confess, that he does not, as some real Protestants, continually harp upon the words FREE grace, and FREE will; but he gives reasons of considerable weight for this. (1.) Christ and his apostles never did so. (2.) He knows the word grace necessarily implies the freeness of a favor; and the word will, the freedom of our choice: and he has too much sense to delight in perpetual tautology. (3.) He finds, by blessed experience, that when the will is touched by Divine grace, and yields to the touch, it is as free to good, as it was before to evil. He dares not, therefore, make the maintaining free will, any more than free breath, the criterion of an unconverted man. On the contrary, he believes none are converted but those who have a free will to follow Jesus; and, far from being ashamed to be called a "free-willer," he affirms it as essential to all men to be "free-willing creatures," as to be "rational animals;" and he supposes he can as soon find a diamond or a flint without gravity, as a good or bad man without free will.

Nor will I conceal that I never heard him use that favorite expression of some good men, Why me? Why me? though he is not at all against their using it, if they can do it to edification. But as he does not see that any of the saints, either of the Old or New Testament ever used it, he is afraid to be humble and "wise above what is written," lest "voluntary humility" should introduce refined pride before he is aware. Doubting, therefore, whether he could say, Why me? Why me? without the self-pleasing idea of his being preferred to thousands, or without a touch of the secret self applause that tickles the Pharisee's heart, when he "thanks God he is not as other men," he leaves the fashionable exclamation to others, with all the refinements of modern divinity; and chooses to keep to St. Paul's expression, "He loved me," which implies no exclusion of his poor fellow sinners; or to that of the royal psalmist, "Lord, what is man, that thou art mindful of him; and the son of man, that thou visitest him."

5. As a consequence of the doctrine of general redemption, Mr. Wesley lays down two axioms, of which he never loses sight in his preaching. The first is, that ALL OUR SALVATION IS OF GOD IN CHRIST, and therefore OF GRACE; -- all opportunities, invitations, inclination, and power to believe being bestowed upon us of mere grace; -- grace most absolutely free: and so far, I hope, that all who are called Gospel ministers agree with him. But he proceeds farther; for, secondly, he asserts with equal confidence, that according to the Gospel dispensation, ALL OUR DAMNATION IS OF OURSELVES, by our obstinate unbelief and avoidable unfaithfulness; as we may "neglect so great salvation," desire to "be excused" from coming to the feast of the Lamb, "make light of" God's gracious offers, refuse to "occupy," bury our talent, and act the part of the "slothful servant;" or, in other words, "resist, grieve, do despite to," and "quench the Spirit of grace," by our moral agency. The first of these evangelical axioms he builds upon such scriptures as these: -- "In me is thy help. Look unto me and be saved. No man cometh unto me except the Father draw him. What hast thou that thou hast not received? We are not sufficient to think aright of ourselves, all our sufficiency is of God. Christ is exalted to give repentance. Faith is the gift of God. Without me ye can do nothing," &c, &c. And the second he founds upon such passages as these: "This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light. Ye always resist the Holy Ghost. They rejected the counsel of God toward themselves. Grieve not the Spirit. Quench not the Spirit. My Spirit shall not always strive with man. Turn, why will ye die? Kiss the Son, lest ye perish. I gave Jezebel time to repent, and she repented not. The goodness of God leads [not drags,] thee to repentance, who after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up wrath unto thyself. Their eyes have they closed, lest they should see, and be converted, and I should heal them. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh from heaven. I set before you life and death, choose life! Ye will not come unto me that ye might have life. I would have gathered you, and ye would not," &c,

64 posted on 07/23/2002 1:30:24 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration

To: whenigettime

I believe that Christ's atonement is sufficient for ALL who have or will ever live. However, just like the ark that Noah built, not everyone will "get on board".

I think you are on target here.

with the ability to respond. Those who respond negatively to the work of Christ and the prompting of the Spirit are akin to those who scoffed at the warning of Noah.

Absolutely. God is always willing for us to come to him. We, however, resist his grace and mercy, turn to our own way, and refuse to follow Him. Noah preached. Individuals could have believed, but they didn't.

You are not off base. You are right on target!!

65 posted on 07/23/2002 1:44:32 PM PDT by xzins

To: fortheDeclaration; whenigettime

Amen! We are all believe in predestination.

Unfortunately, the word predesination has come to be seen in terms of the calvinist perspective.

Let's clarify.

1. Calvinists think you're predestined before you're ever born. (a) Some are preselected to go to hell and be damned. (b) Others are preselected to go to heaven.

2. Classical Christians think you're predestined AFTER you become a believer. You are predestined to participate in God's heaven. Since God has always known the future, He ALWAYS knew that you would choose HIM. But just because He knew doesn't mean he FORCED your decision one way or another. He did, however, try very hard to INFLUENCE your decision through the power of his Holy Spirit (prevenient grace = preparing your heart grace.)

66 posted on 07/23/2002 2:00:28 PM PDT by xzins

To: Conservative til I die

If you want to know the truth on salvation, just consult Catholic doctrine.

Amen!

Only by the Grace of God are we sinners granted salvation; we can not earn it through faith OR works. But to accept the free gift that God has given us through the life, death and resurrection of His Son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, we must believe (faith) and we must live our lives like Christ, obeying the commandments and walking in His footsteps. Once saved, always saved? No ... salvation in ongoing. It's not a "I'm now saved, let's party" proposition; we must continue to grow in love and faith and show our love and faith.

God bless!

67 posted on 07/23/2002 2:00:28 PM PDT by Gophack

To: Revelation 911

I hope so too rev.. I actually admire Wesley and his ministry to the outcasts...he is sitting up there having tea with Calvin...imagine that:>)

But those were complicated political and religious times..He came down on the side of tradition

BTW Someone on the Neverending thread tried to say he kept the Saturday sabbath and was from puritian stock...

YES I defended Wesley there:>)

68 posted on 07/23/2002 2:26:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7

Unfortunately, the word predesination has come to be seen in terms of the calvinist perspective.

Okay, here's where I might get "hung up". I believe that God is Sovereign and if He chooses who He will save even BEFORE the creation of the world, then that's His business and I sure don't have all knowledge to explain this, but I do see scripture to back this up. I also happen to be of the opinion that all John Calvin did was put Bible doctrine into terms that were understandable to the average believer of his time (I would venture a guess that Calvin's goal was to point one to the Sovereignty of God and away from the sovereignty of the church of his day).

I know I have more prayer and study to do.
Thanks for whetting my appetite into things spiritual.
Pam

69 posted on 07/23/2002 2:27:14 PM PDT by whenigettime

To: fortheDeclaration

Mr Wesley was a man that believed in regeneration in Baptism and in the ability to lose your salvation ..do you agree with him?

70 posted on 07/23/2002 2:29:36 PM PDT by RnMomof7

To: whenigettime; fortheDeclaration

If God makes it possible for everyone to be saved, and then has his Son die so that anyone can be saved, what does it say about God if he CREATES some people INCAPABLE of choosing what he has made possible for them?

71 posted on 07/23/2002 2:34:40 PM PDT by xzins

I don't agree with Wesley on baptismal regeneration and I'm in the camp that says unbelievers will not be in heaven.

But I disagree with you about fatalistic predestination, yet I believe the same as you that Jesus is the only Savior of the World and that he's going to return in glory and power.

72 posted on 07/23/2002 2:38:30 PM PDT by xzins

To: whenigettime; fortheDeclaration

Let's say you're my kid and you have a big brother and you need medicine.

First, I say, "I have enough money for you to get your medicine." Then I say to your Big Brother, "Take WHENIGETTIME to the drug store with this money. It's enought to pay."

Before you leave, I pull Big Brother aside and say, "When you get to the front of the line hold the money up high so he's incapable of getting it, and don't you pay the price for him."

If you have a desperate illness, what does that say about that father?

73 posted on 07/23/2002 2:45:46 PM PDT by xzins

what does it say about God if he CREATES some people INCAPABLE of choosing what he has made possible for them?

That He is Sovereign and we don't know anything and it isn't our business to know His Holy Right from Wrong. In fact, if I recall, in Genesis, part of the lie of taking of the forbidden fruit was that we would know good from evil, as God does:

Genesis 3:4 "But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So, some will heed His warning of judgement to come and some will not. As to why, that is a mystery to me, but I fully believe and can rely on the truth that the Lord knows.

Thanks again!
P

74 posted on 07/23/2002 2:47:14 PM PDT by whenigettime

Before you leave, I pull Big Brother aside and say, "When you get to the front of the line hold the money up high so he's incapable of getting it, and don't you pay the price for him.

You make the assumption (unintended, I believe) that ALL are aware of their need for forgiveness and redemption. It would be cruel indeed for any father to make known an illness to his child and then do nothing to help him. I do not believe that the Lord does such a thing. The reason anyone would be aware of his sinful, damned condition is because the Lord, in His Mercy, has made it known. Then, this said person will seek Him until he rests at the foot of the Cross of God in Christ.

75 posted on 07/23/2002 2:54:51 PM PDT by whenigettime

To: whenigettime

You make the assumption (unintended, I believe) that ALL are aware of their need for forgiveness and redemption

The Bible makes that assumption. See below.

John 1:9 -- That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[2]

John 16 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[1] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

76 posted on 07/23/2002 3:06:06 PM PDT by xzins

John 1:9 -- That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[2]

John 1:10-13 "He was in the world and the world came into being through Him, yet, the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

77 posted on 07/23/2002 3:25:12 PM PDT by whenigettime

To: whenigettime; fortheDeclaration; ShadowAce; P-Marlowe

1. "He was in the world and the world came into being through Him, yet, the world did not know Him. they should feel guilty and in need of forgiveness.

2. "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him." They should feel guilty and in need of forgiveness, too.

3. The Correct Order of Salvation:

a. 1st Comes Believing: "But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, "Believing is not working: "Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. ">

b. 2nd Comes Rebirth: He gave power to become children of God; who were born,

c. This rebirth is not of human origin "...who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

78 posted on 07/23/2002 3:38:04 PM PDT by xzins

Tellya what?
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I do not believe that salvation has anything to do with a neat order of things. The rebirth into Christ is certainly of God and the entrance is through humbly seeking His forgiveness, but HOW and even IF that all comes about is completely up to the Lord! :0)

Blessings,
P

79 posted on 07/23/2002 3:44:51 PM PDT by whenigettime

Mr Wesley was a man that believed in regeneration in Baptism and in the ability to lose your salvation ..do you agree with him?

Ofcourse not.

We are not talking about that now are we.

'Doc' and many others on your side believe in infant baptism do they not?

80 posted on 07/23/2002 3:50:37 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration

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