Does God force you to believe or can you resist? Irresistible Grace -- Not a Bible Teaching.

Allow me to summarize your points.

Texas says:
1. The bible sometimes has apparent contradictions.
2. Scripture citing resistance to grace is one of those contradictions.
3. You cite Ro 9:14-15 as meaning that human will is not a component in God's mercy.
4. You cite Ro 9:18 to mean that God prevented Pharaoh from doing God's bidding. You cite Ro 8:30 to mean that the predestinated cannot resist.
5. You cite John 6:37-39 to mean that the predestinated can do nothing but come to Jesus.
6. You cite Ro 9:20 to support total inability.
7. You summarize by saying that the elect cannot resist and that the non-elect are hardened.
8. You conclude saying that arminians finding verses that teach resistance is only a partial picture.

So, have I summarized your post fairly well? What would you modify in my summation?

Are you planning another chart Xzins?

I have asked you several times in the last few days if in your opinion /doctrine the blood at the cross has no effect? Is it simply a potential salvation? Is it a blood in the bank?

You have in the past expressed that pas means all men without exception.

So I am trying to figure out what is it you really believe

Did Christ die on the cross for the sins of all men every where without exception? ( a universal salvation for all men that is complete)

Or do you believe as you now seem to be saying believe that he actually did not die for anyone at all..that the cross was simply an opportunity for salvation?

Are you planning another chart Xzins?.... Or do you believe as you now seem to be saying believe that he actually did not die for anyone at all..that the cross was simply an opportunity for salvation?

Ask a real question based on things I've actually said or based on my real beliefs and I'll respond to you. I don't deal with personal attacks and I don't deal with chaff.

42 was a real set of questions xzins..you have said you believe that Jesus died for all men. That is Universalism

Now you say that the cross is like money in the bank..not effective untill withdrawn.That in effect ino man was really saved on Calvery

So you move from a Universal atonment to a non atonement and you act insulted when some one asked you what it is you really believe about the atonement.

Was it for all on that day on Calvery? Was it only potential or was it actual?

For months now you have ragged on the Calvinists tell us all means all..now you say all means none..

It is a legitimate to ask is it all means all? Or is that just an expression ?

Or is that just an expression?

So much of the Arminians' beliefs are "expressions"...of feelings, emotions, good intentions.

The logic of your questions reflects the strength of Calvinism.

1. The bible sometimes has apparent contradictions.

The Bible contains statements that would appear to be contradictory, but they cannot be because God is not a God of confusion. Any apparent contradiction can and must be harmonized using other passages of scripture.

2. Scripture citing resistance to grace is one of those contradictions

No, the scriptures you cite indicating that one can resist the grace of God would appear, without the introduction of other truths, to present an apparent contradiction. The problem with your posts however is that you don't attempt to reconcile the apparent contradiction. For example someone who advocates the fact that God is a spirit must attempt to harmonize those verse indicating that God has body parts. That person cannot insist that those verses do not belong in the Bible or cannot be true.

3. You cite Ro 9:14-15 as meaning that human will is not a component in God's mercy.

Romans 9 v.15 says ...but I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I ill have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth of him that runneth, but of God who shows mercy." Therefore, it is clear from the text that one cannot become a child of God based on the strength or exercise of their will.

4. You cite Ro 9:18 to mean that God prevented Pharaoh from doing God's bidding.

No. You misstated the point. God did not prevent Pharoah from doing His bidding. God hardened Pharoah and that was his bidding. God hardens whom he will harden for his own glory. And shows mercy to whom he will have mercy for His own glory. Therfore God is glorified not only in the salvation of sinners, but also in their judgment and punishment.

You cite Ro 8:30 to mean that the predestinated cannot resist.

Romans 8:30 says "For whom he did predestinate, them he also called (called through the preaching of the gospel):and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Again, there is no hint here that anyone chosen by God will be able to successfully resist Him, all will be called, justified and ultimately glorified.

5. You cite John 6:37-39 to mean that the predestinated can do nothing but come to Jesus.

Simply read the text and don't attempt to rephrase it. It doesn't say that the predestinated can do "nothing but come to Jesus." That implies fatalism. Here we go again. "All that the Father hath given me shall come to me; and him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out." "And this is the father's will which he hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." The scripture says that all that the Father hath given unto the Son will come unto the Son. If all come, and as we saw in Romans that all those predestined will come and ultimately be glorified, that leaves absolutely no room for a predestinated person being able to successfully resist the grace of God.

6. You cite Ro 9:20 to support total inability.

No. Romans 9:20 is cited to show that the non-elect cannot make any claim of unrighteousness against God for making them a vessel of dishonor. Again, look at the verse. "Shall the thing formed say unto him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? v.21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel of honor and another unto dishonor. All this is that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which he hath prepared unto glory. v. 23.

7. You summarize by saying that the elect cannot resist and that the non-elect are hardened.

8. You conclude saying that arminians finding verses that teach resistance is only a partial picture.

Because of God's predestinating love for the elect and the immutability of the covenant of redemption made between the Father and the Son, the elect person will never be able to successfully resist the will of God. That person will be brought to God. All those given by the Father to the Son will come to the Son. Because God has not bestowed His compassion on the non-elect, the non-elect rejects God. However, that rejection is not so much a reaction to His gracious calling as a statement of his native depravity. No man seeketh after God. As that man continues in his rejection of God, God sovereignly can choose to harden him as part of his judgment.

Excellent post...

One of the things that non Calvinists like to say is that the Irrestible Grace of God has turned us into robots , and that only a free will salvation has any value

What they fail to understand is that the Grace of God does not bind us and make us automatons, but His love has instead turned us into his friends.
(Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. )

That grace is "infallible and certain" but it is that way because God conquers our heart by" loving persuasion".

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

The most amazing thing to me Tex is that every man that is saved was wooed by that grace and yieled to it..If my Arminian brothers and sisters asked thmeself what was different on the day they repented and believed..my guess would be an overwhelming presence of the love of God wooed and converted them

see #43

I suspect that you know it is a real question xzins one that leaves gaps in what you believe .

I do not see how you reconcile your two statements.

Did Christ die for all men?. Does all mean all of every kind? Or was it not an atonemet at all? Was it simple an opportunity for the men that figured it out to be saved?

You know this is an important doctrinal question posed with my usual two left feet..but it is the basis of what we believe

If you do not want to explain what you believe and why you believe it I think there is a spot for you at hobbits hole :>)

1. I agree with your #1 response.
2. We agree that the entire Bible is in harmony.
3. I disagree with your interpretation of scripture in #3.
4. You say, God hardened Pharoah and that was his bidding. Is the "his" referring to God or Pharaoh? That is, are you saying "God hardened Pharaoh and that was God's bidding?" Or are you saying, "God hardened Pharaoh and that was Pharaoh's bidding?"
5. all those predestined will come and ultimately be glorified. You say this is the interpretation of the John 6 verses. Is that correct?
6. You cite Romans 9:20 to say, non-elect cannot make any claim of unrighteousness against God for making them a vessel of dishonor. How is that not the same as total inability?
7. You left it intact, so I understood correctly. We disagree.
8. You leave 8 intact, agreeing with it, but adding that total depravity is the reason they are not able to seek God. We disagree.

Can you clarify #'s 4,5,6?

Did Christ die for all men?. Does all mean all of every kind?

Thanks for the real question.

Christ's death was sufficient to cover the sin of all men of all time AND God's desire was that all men be saved.

The terms of the covenant, however, were that men had to believe in order to appropriate the benefit of the sacrifice. The sacrifice was effective for believers only.

To God Believing is not a work of righteousness per Romans 4:5...In this scripture, on the one hand you have "work" and on the other hand you have "belief."

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Where I get lost in the maze is what you really believe happened on Calvery

We agree that Christs sacrifice was sufficent for all..but effective only for the elect (those that believe)

But I believe it was completed on the cross. That at that moment all the elect were saved.

If I take what I think I have heard you say for several days now ,that the work of salvation was not completed on the cross that day, it was only a promise that it could be complete in the future. Could you clarify when and where you believe the salvation of all men occurred?

We read the Romans text differently xzings I think it is saying that the belief generated by the unsaved man by himself IS a work

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I think we can agree that God has chosen His word to bring new life , and the fatih that follows it

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But the question is , at least in my mind can a man without the grace of God believe the gospel unto salvation?

1Th 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

And the gospel indicated further that there are some that can not hear it to be brought to new life

2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Rn, how do you keep getting a "g" in "xzins?" Didn't you say once that you are dyslexic? (You and restornu and someone else....rev 911 maybe?) (xzinGs....get that thing outta there :-) )

4. You say, God hardened Pharoah and that was his bidding. Is the "his" referring to God or Pharaoh? That is, are you saying "God hardened Pharaoh and that was God's bidding?" Or are you saying, "God hardened Pharaoh and that was Pharaoh's bidding?"

Well, in a sense, it was the will of God, because he did it. In another sense, it appears as though it was the will of Pharoah. In other words, Pharoah did not do what he did not want to do.

5. all those predestined will come and ultimately be glorified. You say this is the interpretation of the John 6 verses. Is that correct?

The Bible says that those that are predestinated will be called and eventually glorified. In addition, the Bible says that all those chosen by the Father will come to the Son. That is not my interpretation of these verses, it is what these verses say. If you disagree, please provide an alternative interpretation.

6. You cite Romans 9:20 to say, non-elect cannot make any claim of unrighteousness against God for making them a vessel of dishonor. How is that not the same as total inability?

I prefer to call it total depravity. All men are born dead in sin. Furthermore, by nature they do not seek after God as He is revealed in the Bible. This applies to ALL men, elect and non-elect. God so works in the heart of the elect to make them willing to embrace Jesus Christ. God does not so work in the heart of the non-elect. Hence, both can sit under the preaching of the gospel. One can be moved of God, the other will remain unmoved even though both hear the same message. God enables the one to receive and believe, God does nothing to enable the other. Hence they remain in their native state of rebellion against God.

It appears to me that you either believe that Christ came to save all men, which would make you a universalist or you are an Arminian, who believes that God's salvation depends somehow on the appropriate exercise of the will of men. Both would trample under foot the perfect sacrifice of Christ on calvary. If Christ died for all, there could be no punishment for sin. Therefore, no one could be judged for their unbelief and God must, lay aside His righteous requirements. If salvation depended on man's assent to it, then God is left wringing his hands after sacrificing His only son for the object of his salvation. Both are dangerous places to be. The problem to me is that you want to place man on an equal footing with God. Beware.

I always add the G..

I think it is automatic like in ING My fingers just type it..:>) You need to change your screen name

No comment on the post?

Well, in a sense, it was the will of God, because he did it. In another sense, it appears as though it was the will of Pharoah. In other words, Pharoah did not do what he did not want to do.

My 2 cents on this

All men are totally depraved. the only thing that keeps us all from being Jeffery Dalhmer and eating each other is gods restraing Grace . That grace keeps order in this fallen world and allows the elect to live with some peace and effective governmental order. All men benefit from Gods general grace

Scripture is clear that Pharoah kept hardening his own heart and God allowed it..then a point was reached where God had to give him over completely to his depravity so that His plan could be accomplished

God did not need to do an affirmative act to harden the heart of the Pharoah..He simply needed to remove what restraining grace he had previously give him

It appears to me that you either believe that Christ came to save all men, which would make you a universalist or you are an Arminian, who believes that God's salvation depends somehow on the appropriate exercise of the will of men. Both would trample under foot the perfect sacrifice of Christ on calvary. If Christ died for all, there could be no punishment for sin. Therefore, no one could be judged for their unbelief and God must, lay aside His righteous requirements. If salvation depended on man's assent to it, then God is left wringing his hands after sacrificing His only son for the object of his salvation. Both are dangerous places to be. The problem to me is that you want to place man on an equal footing with God. Beware.

This is what I have been trying to clarify for a while here I am confused as to what he believes

If Christ died for all, there could be no punishment for sin...If salvation depended on man's assent to it, then God is left wringing His hands after sacrificing His only son for the object of his salvation.

Yes, the Arminians' God is truly frustrated; stymied by that old devil Will.

Bump for sound doctrine.