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Praying for the dead [Purgatory]
CIN ^ | Father Brian Van Hove, SJ

Posted on 07/31/2002 12:36:33 PM PDT by JMJ333

One major difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics pray for the dead. As Cardinal Ratzinger said so well, "My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it." Why? "Because few things are as immediate, as human and as widespread - at all times and in all cultures - as prayer for one's own departed dear ones."

Calvin, the Protestant reformer of Geneva, had a woman whipped because she was discovered praying at the grave of her son and hence was guilty, according to Calvin, of "superstition."

"In theory, the Reformation refuses to accept purgatory, and consequently it also rejects prayer for the departed," Cardinal Ratzinger said in "The Ratzinger Report," a book by Vittorio Messori. "In fact, German Lutherans at least have returned to it in practice and have found considerable theological justification for it. Praying for one's departed loved ones is a far too immediate urge to be suppressed; it is a most beautiful manifestation of solidarity, love and assistance, reaching beyond the barrier of death. The happiness or unhappiness of a person dear to me, who has now crossed to the other shore, depends in part on whether I remember or forget him; he does not stop needing my love."

Catholics are not the only ones who pray for the dead. The custom is also a Jewish one, and Catholics traditionally drew upon the Hebrew Bible text of 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, in addition to some New Testament passages, to justify their belief.

Besides the Jews, many ancient peoples also prayed for the deceased. Some societies, such as that of ancient Egypt, were actually "funereal" and built around the practice.

Spanish-speaking Catholics today popularly refer to All Souls Day as El Dia de los Muertos, a relic of the past when the pre-Christian Indians had a Day of the Dead; liturgically, the day is referred to as El Dia de las Animas.

The French Jesuit missionaries in New France in the 17th century easily explained All Souls Day by comparing it to the local Indian Day of the Dead.

Ancestor worship was also well known in China and elsewhere in Asia, and missionaries there in times gone by perhaps had it easier explaining All Souls Day to them, and Christianizing the concept, than they would have to us in the Western world as the 20th century draws to a close.

The urge to pray for the dead is deep in the human spirit, which rebels against the concept of annihilation after death. Although there is some evidence for a Christian liturgical feast akin to our All Souls Day as early as the fourth century, the Church was slow to introduce such an observance because of the persistence, in Europe, of more ancient pagan rituals for the dead. In fact, the Protestant reaction to praying for the dead may be based more on these survivals and a deformed piety from pre-Christian times than on the true Catholic doctrine as expressed by either the Western or the Eastern Church. The doctrine of purgatory, rightly understood as praying for the dead, should never give offense to anyone who professes faith in Christ.

When we discuss All Souls Day, we look at a liturgical commemoration which predated doctrinal formulation itself, since the Church often clarifies only that which is being undermined or threatened. The first clear documentation for this celebration comes from Isidore of Seville (d. 636; the last of the great Western Church Fathers), whose monastic rule includes a liturgy for all the dead on the day after Pentecost.

The date of November 2 for the liturgical commemoration of the faithful departed was set by St. Odilo (962-1049), who was the abbot of Cluny in France. Before that, other dates had been observed around the Christian world, and the Armenians still use Easter Monday for this purpose. He issued a decree that all the monasteries of the congregation of Cluny were annually to keep this feast. On November 1, the bell was to be tolled and afterward the Office of the Dead was to be recited in common, and on the next day all the priests would celebrate Mass for the repose of the souls in purgatory.

The observance of the Benedictines of Cluny was soon adopted by other Benedictines and by the Carthusians. Pope Sylvester in 1003 approved and recommended the practice. Eventually, the parish clergy introduced this liturgical observance, and from the 11th to the 14th century, it spread in France, Germany, England and Spain. Finally, in the 14th century, Rome placed the day of the commemoration of all the faithful departed in the official books of the Western or Latin Church. November 2 was chosen in order that the memory of all the holy spirits, both of the saints in heaven and of the souls in purgatory, should be celebrated in two successive days. In this way the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints would be expressed.

Since for centuries the Feast of All Saints had already been celebrated on November 1, the memory of the departed souls in purgatory was placed on the following day. All Saints Day goes back to the fourth century, but was finally fixed on November 1 by Pope Gregory in 835. The two feasts bind the saints-to-be with the almost-saints and the already-saints before the resurrection from the dead.

On All Souls Day, can we pray for those in limbo? The notion of limbo is not ancient in the Church, and was a theological extrapolation to provide explanation for cases not included in the heaven-purgatory-hell triad. Limbo does not appear as a thesis to be taught in the new Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church.

In fact, Cardinal Ratzinger was in favor of the notion of limbo being set aside. In "The Ratzinger Report," he said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally - and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation - I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God' (John 3:5). One should not hesitate to give up the idea of limbo, if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed 'limbo' also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for faith; it is not now, nor will it ever be."

The doctrine of purgatory, upon which the liturgy of All Souls rests. is formulated in canons promulgated by the Councils of Florence (1439) and Trent (1545-1563). The truth of the doctrine existed before its clarification, of course, and only historical necessities motivated both councils to pronounce when they did. Acceptance of this doctrine still remains a required belief of Catholic faith.

What about indulgences? Indulgences from the treasury of grace in the Church are applied to the departed on All Souls Day, as well as on other days, according to the norms of ecclesiastical law. The faithful make use of their intercessory role in prayer to ask the Lord's mercy upon those who have died. Essentially, the practice urges the faithful to take responsibility. This is the opinion of Michael Morrissey in the Dictionary of Catholic Spirituality: "Since the Church has taught that death is not the end of life, then neither is it the end of our relationship with loved ones who have died, who along with the saints make up the Body of Christ in the 'Church Triumphant."' This assumes, of course, that they died in a state of grace and are finished with purification via purgatory.

Morrissey adds that "the diminishing theological interest in indulgences, today is due to an increased emphasis on the sacraments, the prayer life of Catholics and an active engagement in the world as constitutive of the spiritual life. More soberly, perhaps, it is due to an individualistic attitude endemic in modern culture that makes it harder to feel responsibility for, let alone solidarity with, dead relatives and friends."

As with everything Christian, then, All Souls Day has to do with the mystery of charity, that divine love overcomes everything, even death. Bonds of love uniting us creatures, living and dead, and the Lord Who is resurrected, are celebrated both on All Saints Day and on All Souls Day each year.

All who have been baptized into Christ and have chosen Him will continue to live in Him. The grave does not impede progress toward a closer union with Him. It is only this degree of closeness to Him which we consider when we celebrate All Saints one day, and All Souls the next.

Purgatory is a great blessing because it shows those who love God how they failed in love, and heals their ensuing shame. Most of us have neither fulfilled the commandments nor failed to fulfill them. Our very mediocrity shames us. Purgatory fills in the void. We learn finally what to fulfill all of them means. Most of us neither hate nor fail completely in love. Purgatory teaches us what radical love means, when God remakes our failure to love in this world into the perfection of love in the next.

As the sacraments on earth provide us with a process of transformation into Christ, so purgatory continues that process until the likeness to Him is completed. It is all grace. Actively praying for the dead is that holy mitzvah or act of charity on our part which hastens that process. The Church encourages it and does it with special consciousness and in unison on All Souls Day, even though it is always and everywhere salutary to pray for the dead.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: cleansing; death; devotion; divinemercy; eternalhope; everlastingcharity; fatima; heaven; hell; holysouls; intercession; judgment; love; pity; prayer; purgatory; superstition
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1 posted on 07/31/2002 12:36:33 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333; oline
Prayers for the faifthful departed are said at every Mass.
2 posted on 07/31/2002 12:54:34 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JMJ333
I Corinthians 3:

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:

13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (D/R)

3 posted on 07/31/2002 12:55:12 PM PDT by Sock
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To: PA Lurker; EODGUY
Ever heard of the "heroic act in favor of the souls in purgatory?"

I found a prayer and explanation in a book by Joan Carroll Cruz about it. It is an act of charity of unselfish offering to God all the satisfactory value of one's prayers and good works--plus the value of any that may be offered for you after one's death--for the benefit of the souls in purgatory.

[The explanation says]The "satisfactory value" of a good work is its value with regard for making up for our sins and reducing our stay in purgatory. However the "meritorius value" of our good works is inalienable, i.e. our merits, which give us a right to an increase of glory in heaven, cannot be applied to anyone else. Moreover, a person who has made the act may still pray for himself, friends and other intentions.

Its revocable at will and is not a vow. By making this act with purity of intention, one is relying on the mercy of God and the prayers of the communion of saints to assist his soul after death.

The heroic act was approved and encouraged by Pope Benedict XIII (1724-1730)

And the prayer goes as such:

Oh God, for your greater glory, and to imitate as closely as possible the generous heart of Jesus, my redeeemer, and also to testify my devotion to the blessed virgin Mary, who is also the mother of the souls in purgatory. I place in your hands all my satisfactory works, as well as the fruit of all those which may be offered for my intention after my death, that you may apply them to the souls in purgatory according to your wisdom and good pleasure. Amen.

Thought that was interesting. =)

4 posted on 07/31/2002 1:03:44 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Salvation
Indeed. And the holy souls appreciate it! =)
5 posted on 07/31/2002 1:05:50 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Sock
Thank you for the verse!
6 posted on 07/31/2002 1:07:36 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333; TotusTuus
This has reminded me of Totus Tuus.
7 posted on 07/31/2002 1:13:01 PM PDT by Sock
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Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son, Jesus, in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, those in my own home and within my family.

Amen.

English

V. Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord.
R. And let the perpetual light shine upon them.

And may the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

Latine

V. Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine.
R. Et lux perpetua luceat eis.

Fidelium animae, per misericordiam Dei, requiescant in pace. Amen.

8 posted on 07/31/2002 1:18:58 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Sock
Totus tuus
ego sum,
Maria,
et omnia mea
tua sunt!
9 posted on 07/31/2002 1:39:57 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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To: JMJ333
I'm just wondering how many of my relatives I'm going to see there.
10 posted on 07/31/2002 1:52:52 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: TotusTuus
Sedes sapientiae, ora pro nobis.
11 posted on 07/31/2002 2:00:44 PM PDT by Sock
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To: JMJ333
As the sacraments on earth provide us with a process of transformation into Christ, so purgatory continues that process until the likeness to Him is completed.

IOW, the work that the bible tells us was completed and finished on the cross wasn't really completed and finished.

Becky

12 posted on 07/31/2002 2:03:18 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Not at all. In essence, there are only three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists: (1) that there is a purification after death, (2) that this purification involves some kind of pain or discomfort, and (3) that God assists those in this purification in response to the actions of the living.

13 posted on 07/31/2002 2:38:14 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Nothing unclean shall enter heaven, Revelation 21:27.
14 posted on 07/31/2002 2:58:22 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: Desdemona
Well, there is no way to know, but time for God is incomprehensible to us, so there may be. I will pray for them. =)
15 posted on 07/31/2002 3:00:31 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
If Jesus died for all sin why do you think you will be unclean.

Becky

16 posted on 07/31/2002 3:14:50 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Sock
"1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

The National Council of Catholic Bishops contains the following footnote at

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians3.htm

Will be saved: although Paul can envision very harsh divine punishment (cf 1 Cor 3:17), he appears optimistic about the success of divine corrective means both here and elsewhere (cf 1 Cor 5:5; 11:32 [discipline]). The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.


17 posted on 07/31/2002 3:37:29 PM PDT by Fithal the Wise
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
He died for the forgiveness of all our sins, but between our death and glory there is a purification. If you like I can outline it from a biblical standpoint.
18 posted on 07/31/2002 3:38:24 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Sure, I'd like to see it. I am leaving for church in a few minutes though so I won't get back till later.

Becky

19 posted on 07/31/2002 3:44:34 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Absolutely. It'll be here for you when you return. =)
20 posted on 07/31/2002 3:46:44 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
three points on the matter which the Catholic Church insists:

The problem with this is though, that God doesn't insist on three points. His was is one point.

John 6:29 Jesus said this is the work of God, believe on him who he has sent.

Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thy heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved.

Him sending you to purgatory sounds a little conditional, a condition I don't see anywhere in scripture, especially not in the verses quoted from 1 Cor.

Becky

21 posted on 07/31/2002 3:49:54 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: JMJ333
Sorry I did not catch that you were the same one I posted the other response too. I thought that was Smedly Butler. See ya later:)

Becky

22 posted on 07/31/2002 3:51:48 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I don't see anything that would be in confliction with the verses you quoted. Being saved and purified are two different matters. Between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure.
23 posted on 07/31/2002 3:55:27 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Okay! Have a good time at church!
24 posted on 07/31/2002 3:56:58 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Fithal the Wise
Thanks FTW,

I must admit, I rarely read anything from the NCCB unless it's posted at FR.

The painful loss which even the righteous will experience in the afterlife is brought forward with especial clarity in 1 Corinthians, where Paul tells us:

"Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Corinthians 3:12-15).

This clearly applies to the saved, for Paul says so ("he himself will be saved"), but it does not indicates that this life-review will be fun, for Paul also says, the person in question's work "is burned up" and "he will suffer loss" and though he will be saved, it will be "only as through fire." Needless to say, seeing ones life's work go up in flames, suffering loss when one was expecting to "receive a reward" and escaping through the flames is not fun.

Thus the day on which we receive our particular judgment at the end of life will not be fun to the extent our works are not good. This clearly shows the reality of pain and discomfort after death but before the inauguration of the eternal order.

Now some Protestants try a dodge to get around this passage by saying that it is our works which are tested. It is true that on the surface of this passage. Paul does say our works will be tested by fire. However, this changes nothing since we will existentially feel it as our works are tested and consumed. That is why Paul says one whose works survive will "receive a reward" -- something he will feel -- and one whose works are consumed will suffer loss -- again, something he will feel.

Thus Paul caps the passage by saying that the saved one who suffers loss will be saved "only as through fire" -- the image being that of a man escaping from a burning building, which is precisely what Paul was talking about -- the local church as a building built by men either with fire-proof materials or materials which will be consumed (read the prior context). Thus the picture is of a man having built up his local church improperly, then seeing his work -- the building he has built -- consumed by fire, so he has to flee from it amid the flames to escape.

Thus while Paul says our works (the building we do) will be tested by fire, he envisions the flames touching us ourselves if our building ignites and we are forced to flee from it. So while under this metaphor in Paul our works are tested, we ourselves feel the consequences of this testing in the most painful way possible, for it is no fun to have to escape from a burning building as the work of your life comes crashing down around you.

Purgatory by James Akin

25 posted on 07/31/2002 3:59:41 PM PDT by Sock
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To: JMJ333
Calvin had a mother whipped because she was found praying at the grave of her deceased son. Yikes! Where can I read more about this incident?
26 posted on 07/31/2002 4:00:43 PM PDT by rising tide
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To: rising tide
LOL...I was wondering if mine were the only eyebrows raised. I am sorry not to be more help, but I don't know. We can always try google. I'll let you know if I find anything. ;)
27 posted on 07/31/2002 4:06:00 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I'm going to use the same source as sock, which is James Akin, who is the head apologist at Catholic Answers or [catholicanswers.com] Here is what he has to say:

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.

The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.

Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine.

I will try and find some quotes by early church doctors [from before the bible was put together] to give also as examples.

28 posted on 07/31/2002 4:18:48 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
"O My Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy."

Whenever I say this prayer I always believe that I am praying for the souls in Purgatory.
29 posted on 07/31/2002 4:24:44 PM PDT by Litany
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To: Litany
One of the Fatima prayers! Thanks. And your screen name has reminded me that I have a litany to the poor souls. I will have to find it after I dig up the quotes for Becky. =)
30 posted on 07/31/2002 4:33:21 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
And here are the quotes I promised:

""Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria,Stromata,6:14(A.D. 202)

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian,The Chaplut,3(A.D. 211)

"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed,she prays for his soul,and requests refreshment for him meanwhie, and fellowship(with him) in the first resurrection;and she offers(her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy,10(A.D. 216)

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa,Sermon on the Dead,PG 13:445,448 (A.D. 394)

The rest of the quotes can be found here.

31 posted on 07/31/2002 4:50:19 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Souls in Purgatory bump
32 posted on 07/31/2002 4:53:55 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Litany

The just shall be in everlasting remembrance;
He shall not fear the evil hearing.

V. Absolve, O Lord, the souls of the faithful departed from every bond of sin,
R. And by the help of Thy grace may they be enabled to escape the avenging judgment, and to enjoy the happiness of eternal life. Lord, have mercy.

Because their present suffering is greates in the knowledge of the pain that their separation from Thee is causing Thee, Lord, have mercy.

Because of their present inability to add to Thy accidental glory,

Lord, have mercy.

Not for our consolation, O Lord; not for their release from purgative pain, O God; but for Thy joy and the greater accidental honor of Thy throne, O Christ the King,

Lord, have mercy.

Response: grant light and peace, O Lord.

For the souls of our departed friends, relations and benefactors,
For those of our family who have fallen asleep in Thy bosom, O Jesus,
For those who have gone to prepare our place,
For those who were our brothers and sisters in Religion,
For priests who were our spiritual directors,
For men or women who were our teachers in school,
For those who were our employers (or employees),
For those who were our associates in daily toil,
For any soul whom we ever offended,
For our enemies now departed,
For those souls who have none to pray for them,
For those forgotten by their friends and kin,
For those now suffering the most,
For those who have acquired the most merit,
For the souls next to be released from Purgatory,
For those who, while on earth, were most devoted to God the Holy Ghost, to Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament, to the holy Mother of God,
For all deceased popes and prelates,
For all deceased priests, seminarians and religious,
For all our separated brethren who deeply loved Thee, and would have come into Thy household had they known the truth,
For those souls who need, or in life asked, our prayers,
For those, closer to Thee than we are, whose prayers we need,

Response: grant them eternal rest, O Lord.

That those may be happy with You forever, who on earth were true models of the Catholic Faith,
That those may be admitted to Thine unveiled Presence, who as far as we know never committed mortal sin,
That those may be housed in glory, who lived always in recollection and prayer,
That those may be given the celestial joy of beholding Thee, who lived lives of mortification and self-denial and penance,
That those may be flooded with Thy love, who denied themselves even Thy favors of indulgence and who made the heroic act for the souls who had gone before them,
That those may be drawn up to the Beatific Vision, who never put obstacles in the way of sanctifying grace and who ever drew closer in mystical union with Thee,

V. Eternal rest give unto them, O Lord,
R. And let perpetual light shine upon them.

Let Us Pray:

Be mindful, O Lord, of Thy servants and handmaids, N. and N., who are gone before us with the sign of faith and repose in the sleep of grace. To the sign of faith and repose in the sleep of grace. To thee, O Lord, and to all who rest in Christ, grant, we beseech Thee, a place of refreshment, light and peace, through the same Christ Our Lord.

R. Amen.

33 posted on 07/31/2002 5:04:06 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
Thank you...this is beautiful. One of the Litanies I don't recall from childhood. I love all of the Litanies; to me they are prayer and Divine poetry.
34 posted on 07/31/2002 5:22:05 PM PDT by Litany
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To: Salvation
If the evolution of life (caterpillar to the butterfly) is GODS example of transition, then the conversation of imagination is eternal. So your not really praying to something dead, just participateing in an evolveing comunication. Please keep praying to GOD he hears you through this evolution.
35 posted on 07/31/2002 5:28:37 PM PDT by BossyRoofer
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To: Siobhan
Hello friend, got any good prayers for the dead? =)
36 posted on 07/31/2002 5:55:41 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
I maintain the prayer is the essence of Christian love.
37 posted on 07/31/2002 6:18:51 PM PDT by EODGUY
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To: EODGUY
And selflessness! Its interesting I thought. It does take a certain heroic action to give up prayers meant for you after your death. I bet God pays back 3-fold.
38 posted on 07/31/2002 6:22:25 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333; White Mountain
Please no flaming but the LDS do Baptism for the Dead.
39 posted on 07/31/2002 6:51:55 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
I'm not going to flame you, rest! And I know that you baptise the dead. Would you like to outline why you do this, and if it has any similarities with orthodox teaching on purgatory? =)
40 posted on 07/31/2002 7:03:33 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: rising tide; JMJ333
RT: "Where can I read more about this [superstition]?"

JMJ:"I was wondering if mine were the only eyebrows raised. I am sorry not to be more help, but I don't know."

I do. In fact -- here you will read an account of the superstitious, themselves, engaging in much worse than mere "whipping", as they deny someone his God given freedoms (in this case, religious freedom) and attempt to cram their own religion down his throat:

"Daniel Rambaut, of Vilario, the father of a numerous family, was apprehended, and, with several others, committed to prison, in the jail of Paysana. Here he was visited by several priests, who with continual importunities did all they could to persuade him to renounce the Protestant religion and turn papist; but this he peremptorily refused, and the priests finding his resolution, pretended to pity his numerous family, and told him that he might yet have his life, if he would subscribe to the belief of the following articles:

1. The real presence of the host.
2. Transubstantiation.
3. Purgatory.
4. The pope's infallibility.
5. That masses said for the dead will release souls from purgatory.
6. That praying to saints will procure the remission of sins.

M. Rambaut told the priests that neither his religion, his understanding, nor his conscience, would suffer him to subscribe to any of the articles, for the following reasons:

1. That to believe the real presence in the host, is a shocking union of both blasphemy and idolatry.

2. That to fancy the words of consecration perform what the papists call transubstantiation, by converting the wafer and wine into the real and identical body and blood of Christ, which was crucified, and which afterward ascended into heaven, is too gross an absurdity for even a child to believe, who was come to the least glimmering of reason; and that nothing but the most blind superstition could make the Roman Catholics put a confidence in anything so completely ridiculous.

3. That the doctrine of purgatory was more inconsistent and absurd than a fairy tale.

4. That the pope's being infallible was an impossibility, and the pope arrogantly laid claim to what could belong to God only, as a perfect being.

5. That saying Masses for the dead was ridiculous, and only meant to keep up a belief in the fable of purgatory, as the fate of all is finally decided, on the departure of the soul from the body.

6. That praying to saints for the remission of sins is misplacing adoration; as the saints themselves have occasion for an intercessor in Christ. Therefore, as God only can pardon our errors, we ought to sue to him alone for pardon.

The priests were so highly offended at M. Rambaut's answers to the articles to which they would have had him subscribe, that they determined to shake his resolution by the most cruel method imaginable:

they ordered one joint of his finger to be cut off every day until all his fingers were gone: they then proceeded in the same manner with his toes; afterward they alternately cut off, daily, a hand and a foot; but finding that he bore his sufferings with the most admirable patience, increased both in fortitude and resignation, and maintained his faith with steadfast resolution and unshaken constancy they stabbed him to the heart, and then gave his body to be devoured by the dogs." [end excerpt]

FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS CHAPTER VI
Persecutions Under the Papacy
http://www.webwriterscanada.com/anewyou/fbm/ch6_fbm.htm

BTW! Does it raise your eyebrows to know that the Roman Church has STILL never retracted its official denial of religious freedom and its right to use violence to force people to accept its doctrines.

In "Catholic" countries the Bible is still shunned as "dangerous.” Wherever the Church of Rome has political power, it still does all it can to keep the closed canon of Scripture away from the people. [Documented by the Hefleys in their book, By Their Blood: Christian Martyrs Of The 20th Century, (Mott Media, 1979)]
41 posted on 07/31/2002 7:11:31 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: JMJ333
A little off topic, but is there a collection spot for prayers that the nuns didnt't teach us?
42 posted on 07/31/2002 7:15:30 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: JMJ333
A friend sent me some lovely prayers from the Episcopalians:

O God, the King of saints, we praise and glorify your holy Name for all your servants who have finished their course in your faith and fear: for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs; and for all your other righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we pray that, encouraged by their examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; through the merits of your Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

O Almighty God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, who by a voice from heaven didst proclaim, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord: Multiply, we beseech thee, to those who rest in Jesus the manifold blessings of thy love, that the good work which thou didst begin in them may be made perfect unto the day of Jesus Christ. And of thy mercy, O heavenly Father, grant that we, who now serve thee on earth, may at last, together with them, be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; for the sake of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, we pray thee to set thy passion, cross, and death, between thy judgment and our souls, now and in the hour of our death. Give mercy and grace to the living, pardon and rest to the dead, to thy holy Church peace and concord, and to us sinners everlasting life and glory; who with the Father and the Holy Spirit livest and reignest, one God, now and for ever. Amen.

Deliver your servant, [ Name ], O Sovereign Lord Christ, from all evil, and set him free from every bond; that he may rest with all your saints in the eternal habitations; where with the Father and the Holy Spirit your live and reign, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

A LITANY AT THE TIME OF DEATH

God the Father,
Have mercy on your servant.

God the Son,
Have mercy on your servant.

God the Holy Spirit,
Have mercy on your servant.

Holy Trinity, one God,
Have mercy on your servant.

From all evil, from all sin, from all tribulation,
Good Lord, deliver him.

By your holy Incarnation, by your Cross and Passion, by your precious Death and Burial,
Good Lord, deliver him.

By your glorious Resurrection and Ascension, and by the Coming of the Holy Spirit,
Good Lord, deliver him.

We sinners beseech you to hear us, Lord Christ: That it may please you to deliver the soul of your servant from the power of evil, and from eternal death,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

That it may please you mercifully to pardon all his sins,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

That it may please you to grant him a place of refreshment and everlasting blessedness,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

That it may please you to give him joy and gladness in your kingdom, with your saints in light,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

Jesus, Lamb of God:
Have mercy on him.

Jesus, bearer of our sins:
Have mercy on him.

Jesus, redeemer of the world:
Give him your peace.

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

Let us pray.

Deliver your servant, Name, O Sovereign Lord Christ, from all evil, and set him free from every bond; that he may rest with all your saints in the eternal habitations; where with the Father and the Holy Spirit your live and reign, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

A Commendation at the Time of Death

Depart, O Christian soul, out of this world;
In the Name of God the Father Almighty who created you;
In the Name of Jesus Christ who redeemed you;
In the Name of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies you.
May your rest be this day in peace,
and your dwelling place in the Paradise of God.

A Commendatory Prayer

Into your hands, O merciful Savior, we commend your servant Name Acknowledge, we humbly beseech you, a sheep of your own fold, a lamb of your own flock, a sinner of your own redeeming. Receive him into the arms of your mercy, into the blessed rest of everlasting peace, and into the glorious company of the saints in light. Amen.

May his soul and the souls of all the departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.


43 posted on 07/31/2002 7:17:35 PM PDT by Siobhan
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To: Matchett-PI
I see you're slumming again. Its a legitimate question since its in the article. Why don't you just provide the source instead of trashing the Eucharist? Ah...but the thing about you calvinists is that you can do nothing but spew vitriol. Notice how the entire thread is smooth until you come on it with your petty hatred. All you had to do was say something to the effect like "let me put it in perspective for you" and it would have been taken in and digested. But not you. You're incapable of civil debate. I have nothing further to say to you.
44 posted on 07/31/2002 7:20:50 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Desdemona
You mean an online collection of prayers?
45 posted on 07/31/2002 7:23:15 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: Siobhan
Beautiful! Thanks, I appreciate it!
46 posted on 07/31/2002 7:24:06 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
"You mean an online collection of prayers?"

Yes, a place to go to find the ones we don't know. A place we can put the ones we know that aren't there. Catch my drift?
47 posted on 07/31/2002 7:26:21 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Desdemona
Yes, a place to go to find the ones we don't know.

The way I find odd things is to go to the google search engine [www.google.com] and type in different words and see what appears. For example, I typed in purgatory, litany's to come up with the one I posted. It also popped up several others. A place we can put the ones we know that aren't there. Catch my drift?

Not certain of what you mean on that one, des.

48 posted on 07/31/2002 7:32:05 PM PDT by JMJ333
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To: JMJ333
From President Eisenhower's Episcopalian Funeral Service:

Remember thy servant, Dwight Eisenhower, O Lord, according to the favor which Thou bearest unto thy people, and grant that, increasing in knowledge and love of Thee, he may go from strength to strength in the life of perfect service in thy heavenly kingdom, through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, ever one God, world without end.  Amen.

Any name can be substituted where Pres. Eisenhower's name is indicated.

49 posted on 07/31/2002 7:37:11 PM PDT by Siobhan
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To: JMJ333; Desdemona
EWTN's Prayer/Devotional website
50 posted on 07/31/2002 7:40:03 PM PDT by Siobhan
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