Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

CIN ^ | Father Brian Van Hove, SJ

[Matchett-PI]

RT: "Where can I read more about this [superstition]?"

JMJ:"I was wondering if mine were the only eyebrows raised. I am sorry not to be more help, but I don't know."

I do. In fact -- here you will read an account of the superstitious, themselves, engaging in much worse than mere "whipping", as they deny someone his God given freedoms (in this case, religious freedom) and attempt to cram their own religion down his throat:

"Daniel Rambaut, of Vilario, the father of a numerous family, was apprehended, and, with several others, committed to prison, in the jail of Paysana. Here he was visited by several priests, who with continual importunities did all they could to persuade him to renounce the Protestant religion and turn papist; but this he peremptorily refused, and the priests finding his resolution, pretended to pity his numerous family, and told him that he might yet have his life, if he would subscribe to the belief of the following articles:

1. The real presence of the host.
2. Transubstantiation.
3. Purgatory.
4. The pope's infallibility.
5. That masses said for the dead will release souls from purgatory.
6. That praying to saints will procure the remission of sins.

M. Rambaut told the priests that neither his religion, his understanding, nor his conscience, would suffer him to subscribe to any of the articles, for the following reasons:

1. That to believe the real presence in the host, is a shocking union of both blasphemy and idolatry.

2. That to fancy the words of consecration perform what the papists call transubstantiation, by converting the wafer and wine into the real and identical body and blood of Christ, which was crucified, and which afterward ascended into heaven, is too gross an absurdity for even a child to believe, who was come to the least glimmering of reason; and that nothing but the most blind superstition could make the Roman Catholics put a confidence in anything so completely ridiculous.

3. That the doctrine of purgatory was more inconsistent and absurd than a fairy tale.

4. That the pope's being infallible was an impossibility, and the pope arrogantly laid claim to what could belong to God only, as a perfect being.

5. That saying Masses for the dead was ridiculous, and only meant to keep up a belief in the fable of purgatory, as the fate of all is finally decided, on the departure of the soul from the body.

6. That praying to saints for the remission of sins is misplacing adoration; as the saints themselves have occasion for an intercessor in Christ. Therefore, as God only can pardon our errors, we ought to sue to him alone for pardon.

The priests were so highly offended at M. Rambaut's answers to the articles to which they would have had him subscribe, that they determined to shake his resolution by the most cruel method imaginable:

they ordered one joint of his finger to be cut off every day until all his fingers were gone: they then proceeded in the same manner with his toes; afterward they alternately cut off, daily, a hand and a foot; but finding that he bore his sufferings with the most admirable patience, increased both in fortitude and resignation, and maintained his faith with steadfast resolution and unshaken constancy they stabbed him to the heart, and then gave his body to be devoured by the dogs." [end excerpt]

FOX'S BOOK OF MARTYRS CHAPTER VI
Persecutions Under the Papacy
http://www.webwriterscanada.com/anewyou/fbm/ch6_fbm.htm

BTW! Does it raise your eyebrows to know that the Roman Church has STILL never retracted its official denial of religious freedom and its right to use violence to force people to accept its doctrines.

In "Catholic" countries the Bible is still shunned as "dangerous.” Wherever the Church of Rome has political power, it still does all it can to keep the closed canon of Scripture away from the people. [Documented by the Hefleys in their book, By Their Blood: Christian Martyrs Of The 20th Century, (Mott Media, 1979)]

[Desdemona]

A little off topic, but is there a collection spot for prayers that the nuns didnt't teach us?

[Siobhan]

A friend sent me some lovely prayers from the Episcopalians:

O God, the King of saints, we praise and glorify your holy Name for all your servants who have finished their course in your faith and fear: for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs; and for all your other righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we pray that, encouraged by their examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; through the merits of your Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

O Almighty God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, who by a voice from heaven didst proclaim, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord: Multiply, we beseech thee, to those who rest in Jesus the manifold blessings of thy love, that the good work which thou didst begin in them may be made perfect unto the day of Jesus Christ. And of thy mercy, O heavenly Father, grant that we, who now serve thee on earth, may at last, together with them, be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; for the sake of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, we pray thee to set thy passion, cross, and death, between thy judgment and our souls, now and in the hour of our death. Give mercy and grace to the living, pardon and rest to the dead, to thy holy Church peace and concord, and to us sinners everlasting life and glory; who with the Father and the Holy Spirit livest and reignest, one God, now and for ever. Amen.

Deliver your servant, [ Name ], O Sovereign Lord Christ, from all evil, and set him free from every bond; that he may rest with all your saints in the eternal habitations; where with the Father and the Holy Spirit your live and reign, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

A LITANY AT THE TIME OF DEATH

God the Father,
Have mercy on your servant.

God the Son,
Have mercy on your servant.

God the Holy Spirit,
Have mercy on your servant.

Holy Trinity, one God,
Have mercy on your servant.

From all evil, from all sin, from all tribulation,
Good Lord, deliver him.

By your holy Incarnation, by your Cross and Passion, by your precious Death and Burial,
Good Lord, deliver him.

By your glorious Resurrection and Ascension, and by the Coming of the Holy Spirit,
Good Lord, deliver him.

We sinners beseech you to hear us, Lord Christ: That it may please you to deliver the soul of your servant from the power of evil, and from eternal death,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

That it may please you mercifully to pardon all his sins,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

That it may please you to grant him a place of refreshment and everlasting blessedness,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

That it may please you to give him joy and gladness in your kingdom, with your saints in light,
We beseech you to hear us, good Lord.

Jesus, Lamb of God:
Have mercy on him.

Jesus, bearer of our sins:
Have mercy on him.

Jesus, redeemer of the world:
Give him your peace.

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

Let us pray.

Deliver your servant, Name, O Sovereign Lord Christ, from all evil, and set him free from every bond; that he may rest with all your saints in the eternal habitations; where with the Father and the Holy Spirit your live and reign, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

A Commendation at the Time of Death

Depart, O Christian soul, out of this world;
In the Name of God the Father Almighty who created you;
In the Name of Jesus Christ who redeemed you;
In the Name of the Holy Spirit who sanctifies you.
May your rest be this day in peace,
and your dwelling place in the Paradise of God.

A Commendatory Prayer

Into your hands, O merciful Savior, we commend your servant Name Acknowledge, we humbly beseech you, a sheep of your own fold, a lamb of your own flock, a sinner of your own redeeming. Receive him into the arms of your mercy, into the blessed rest of everlasting peace, and into the glorious company of the saints in light. Amen.

May his soul and the souls of all the departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.

[JMJ333]

I see you're slumming again. Its a legitimate question since its in the article. Why don't you just provide the source instead of trashing the Eucharist? Ah...but the thing about you calvinists is that you can do nothing but spew vitriol. Notice how the entire thread is smooth until you come on it with your petty hatred. All you had to do was say something to the effect like "let me put it in perspective for you" and it would have been taken in and digested. But not you. You're incapable of civil debate. I have nothing further to say to you.

[JMJ333]

You mean an online collection of prayers?

[JMJ333]

Beautiful! Thanks, I appreciate it!

[Desdemona]

"You mean an online collection of prayers?"

Yes, a place to go to find the ones we don't know. A place we can put the ones we know that aren't there. Catch my drift?

[JMJ333]

Yes, a place to go to find the ones we don't know.

The way I find odd things is to go to the google search engine [www.google.com] and type in different words and see what appears. For example, I typed in purgatory, litany's to come up with the one I posted. It also popped up several others. A place we can put the ones we know that aren't there. Catch my drift?

Not certain of what you mean on that one, des.

[Siobhan]

From President Eisenhower's Episcopalian Funeral Service:

Remember thy servant, Dwight Eisenhower, O Lord, according to the favor which Thou bearest unto thy people, and grant that, increasing in knowledge and love of Thee, he may go from strength to strength in the life of perfect service in thy heavenly kingdom, through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, ever one God, world without end.  Amen.

Any name can be substituted where Pres. Eisenhower's name is indicated.

[Siobhan]

EWTN's Prayer/Devotional website

[JMJ333]

Thanks! You're always a big help!

[Siobhan]

It is my pleasure. God bless.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

OK, lets talk about 1 Cor 3:11-15.

v. 11 Pretty self explanatiory. JESUS is the only foundation.

v.12-13 If a man is saved, he then builds on the foundation of Christ with his works, not to get saved or stay saved because the foundation is there always. These works will be manifest, (made such as a physical substance) as gold, silver, etc.

v.14-15 Any works, works not souls, that withstands the test of fire will be rewarded. The works that do not survive the trying by fire, such as hay wood or stubble would not survive, will suffer a lose of a reward that they could have received if the work had been done pure.v.15 clearly indicates that the writer is speaking of works performed by each person, not the person himself.

Heb.10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down n the right hand of God.

Heb.10:14 For by one offering he hat PERFECTED FOREVER them that are sanctified.

Perfected forever. You say you have to go to purgatory to be perfected, God says Jesus' did it for us forever.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Matt. 5:25-26 The payment of debt and the prison referred to here simply mean the normal legal process that one could encounter in our earthly lives. He is teaching on dealing with anger.

Becky

[JMJ333]

We are perfected once in heaven. And I would add that my perfection will be complete on the last day of judgement when my body is reunite with my soul. However, my soul will be cleansed. That is all purgatory is--a cleansing process. What did you think about the post that traces this belief back to the Jews? And also, do the early doctors and what they taught hold any weight with you?

[JMJ333]

In regard to Matt 5 25-26, he is speaking in parable as he does many times in the bible. I think it is consistent to say that sins are forgiven but then have to be cleansed, which is what he talking about repaying in full.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

As you know 2 Macc. is not looked upon as inspired by God to anyone but catholics. And unless you can give scripture references to Jews holding to the belief of purgatory, no I am sorry they don't hold much wieght with me.

What did you think about my post that was from the inspired word of God:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

As you know 2 Macc. is not looked upon as inspired by God to anyone but catholics. And unless you can give scripture references to Jews holding to the belief of purgatory, no I am sorry they don't hold much wieght with me.

What did you think about my post that was from the inspired word of God:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Sorry for the double post, my cat stepped on the keyboard:)

No where, does Jesus indicate that in Matt. 5 is he speaking in parables. Unless Jesus indicates in his word that what he says is parable you should read it literally. If you take something as parable that is not indicated as parable then you would never know what is and what isn't which throws the whole bible into question.

Becky

[Siobhan]

You are misinformed. 2 Macc. is part of the Eastern Orthodox Canon of Scripture, and it is also part of the Canon of Scripture for the Oriental Orthodox (Copts, Jacobites, Monophysites).

More Christians believe 2 Macc. is part of the Canon worldwide than those who don't.