Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

CIN ^ | Father Brian Van Hove, SJ

[Siobhan]

The verse means what it says in Greek. No commentary is really needed.

The Church Fathers and some protestant Bibles like the NASB cross-reference the passage with Job 23:10; Ps 66:10, 12; Jude 23 for comparison and clarification.

Using the King James Version: 15   If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The construction after the colon "but he himself shall be saved" is then followed by a clause referring directly to the nominative "he himself" -- so it may read "but he himself shall be saved; yet he himself shall be saved as by (with, from, in, through) fire.

[Siobhan]

Your emphasis of "as" is not in the Amplified, and you are mistaken to stress it because it is not stressed so in either the Amplified or the Greek.

[Siobhan]

So long for now and God's angels attend you this night.

[JMJ333]

Thanks for offering the civil debate.

Let me ask you this since you don't accept that the disciples and early doctors of the church had authority to teach doctrine: How do you know that the right books were put into the bible? How do you know what constitutes the New Testament canon? How do you know for certain that these 27 books in your New Testament are in fact inspired and should be in the New Testament? And how do you know for certain that maybe some inspired books haven’t been left out of the canon?

And what about the fact that this doctrine was unquestioned until the late 1500s? You are saying that Christianity was wrong for the first 1500 years?

[JMJ333]

Good night and God Bless you and the new baby and daughter. =)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Yes, I know I stressed the "as". I was trying to show that to stress that as I read it it is saying "as if" by fire. Meaning he esaceped fire. One of the words you gave in explaination to Mack was "from", That is how I see it, when you study it along with the rest of God's Word, not just taking one verse by itself. Add the Heb. verses I quoted and things get alot clearer. I notice no one has commented on the Perfected Forever verse:)

Becky

Becky

[JMJ333]

I did comment on it. I said that perfection would be complete upon entrance to heaven, but that before one entered heaven one goes through a cleansing process, as taught unchallenged for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Also, do you have a reply for post 73?

If I don't answer it just means I went to bed and will answer tomorrow. =)

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Did I miss you giving me the verses that repudaite bible only. It;s late and I am usually in bed by now also, so I'll check tomorrow for those verses.

Becky

[Theresa]

"BTW! Does it raise your eyebrows to know that the Roman Church has STILL never retracted its official denial of religious freedom and its right to use violence to force people to accept its doctrines. "

Ah baloney! Calvin and Luther were not very big on religious freedom either. You are applying modern values to the Middle Ages. Read any unbiased history of Christianity and your eyes will be opened. The Reformers, were no better when it came to the persecution of those who did not agree with them. And both Catholics and Protestants burned witches at the stake. Which I expect you would agree was just as wrong as buring Christians at the stake. That was how it was back then. There was really no such thing as freedom of religion. If your ruler was a Catholic you better be a Catholic, and if he was a Protestant you better be a Protestant. Brush up on your history if you care about the truth. And get a decent, history book, something with recent scholarship, not crap written by somebody with an agenda.

[Theresa]

"Perfected forever. You say you have to go to purgatory to be perfected, God says Jesus' did it for us forever."

Let's just do a common sense analogy. Let's say a man, not a Christian, robs a bank. He has to go to jail for 20 years. After he has served one year of his sentence, he repents and becomes a Christian. It is a genuine conversion. Does he get to go to the judge and say, "Okay your Honor, I have accepted Christ, and he paid the price for my sin of bank robbery. Therefore you have to let me out of jail. I don't have to serve the remaining 19 years of my sentence. Christ has perfected me." Of course not! The man still has to pay an temporal (earthly) price for his sin. And a Christian he accepts this. Christ's death on the cross did not free us from having to pay a temporal price for our sins. What it did do was make it possible for us to attain heaven if we repent of them and accept him. Christ paid the eternal price but not the temporal price.

Another example. A guy is a drug addict. Because of this he he beat his wife, impoverished his children and robbed many people to feed his habit. Then he coverts and through the grace of God his sin is forgiven. But life does not just turn rosy for him. He has a lot of work to do to get back the love and trust of his family. He still has to pay a price, even though Christ has forgiven his sin. If he dies before he has fully paid that price, then he will pay it in purgatory, even though he is forgiven and knows heaven awaits him. Some of his purgatory will be on earth as he struggles with the effects of his sin and pain it has caused others and the hardship of putting his life back together.

It is common sense and biblical. And it is not only that but it is simple justice too. If a murderer goes unpunished during this life but converts to Christ on his death bed, by your logic he goes straight to heaven. Whereas a murderer who spent 40 years in prison and then converts on his death bed, by your logic also goes straight to heaven. But that is unjust because one was punished for 40 years and the other was never punished.

[Theresa]

Do you resist the idea of suffering for your sins even though God has forgiven them? Let's say you are late for work and are going over the speed limit and you get a ticket. You expect to have to pay that ticket. You don't say, Oh Jesus will pay that for me. God will forgive you if you are truly sorry but you he won't pay the ticket for you. I expect to have to suffer for my sins here on earth or in the age to come or both. For as Jesus said, you will not escape until you have paid the very last penny. I don't understand this seeming unwillingness of NC's to suffer for a while AFTER DEATH for the sins not fully suffered for in life. I know you understand that while you live you have to pay the price for your sins, but why do think that as soon as you die, it is all wiped out? Just asking.

[Theresa]

"He does not lose his salvation if he is on the foundation, which is trust in Christ, even though he receives no reward."

What? Salvation is not a reward? He will be saved but not very happy? I don't understand.

[Theresa]

"As you know 2 Macc. is not looked upon as inspired by God to anyone but catholics."

It is inspired by God, only Luther did not think so and he got rid of it. You are putting your trust in Luther.

[Theresa]

I can't remember who it was that posted something about Jews praying for the dead. I think they do. Does Kaddish count? From a Jewish web site.

In memorium of our dear Jewish brethren who perished in the Holocaust, we say Kaddish, which has in it the power to keep those precious souls alive, and link us to them in a most appropriate manner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Throughout the millenium, Jews have remembered their loved ones with the recitation of the Kaddish. Kaddish is the most caring and respectful way we can manifest our undying love. Kaddish is the way we actively demonstrate that a Jewish soul is never forgotten. If you or members of your family are unable to fully tend to the spiritual needs of your dearly departed -- let us help. "Grant atonement to your nation Israel whom you have redeemed." (Deut:21:8) The Rabbis explained in the Pesikta: " ... this refers to the dead who can receive atonement thorugh the charity of the living." Thus we learn that the dead derive benefit from charity which the living give on their behalf ... This also applies to one who recites KADDISH or any blessing publicly in the synagogue. (R' Bachya, Deut:21:6) If you or members of your family are unable to fully tend to the spiritual needs of your dearly departed -- let us help. Is it difficult for you or your friend to go to Shul (attend a service in a synagogue) to say Kaddish? Do you know someone who would like Kaddish to be recited yearly on the Yahrzeit for parents, grandparents, in-laws or a friend? Rabbi I. Kurlander and his dedicated rabbinical staff will personally say Kaddish for the soul of your beloved. To find out more about the origin of Kaddish and the special power it has to perpetuate every Jewish soul, please call or write to The Kaddish Foundation. Rabbi Kurlander and his staff are available and most willing to assist you, 24 hours a day. This foundation is approved and highly endorsed by leading Rabbis in America, Canada, and Israel.

[Theresa]

"That is how I see it, when you study it along with the rest of God's Word, not just taking one verse by itself. "

The RCC has been studying the bible for 2,000 years but well, okay, if you want to give advise on how to study the bible, fine but...I am going with the RCC on this one. ;o>

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I never said you would not pay for your sins on earth. I believe we were talking of our spiritual life. Nice try at spinning away the point, but no dice.

What does the bible mean in Heb. were it says, one scrafice perfected believers forever. What you are saying by believeing in purgatory is that you weren't perfected by the one sacrafice, that you have to add to it by going to purgatory to finish the job.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture.

Could you please give me the scripture you are referring to here. Thanks.

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Its repudiated by scripture itself...that is when you recognize scripture for what it is and what it isn't.

I am sorry, I am not real sharp, especially after 10:00 at night, I missed this. But in finding it today, I still see no specific scripture reference to why you believe this. Can you give me one/some?

Becky

[JMJ333]

Its ok. By that time I was tired and my left hand was aching! Glad I caught you now, to stop in and tell you that I am leaving for work. I will answer your posts when I return--probably after 5:00. See you later! =)

[Siobhan]

That is how I see it, when you study it along with the rest of God's Word, not just taking one verse by itself. Add the Heb. verses I quoted and things get alot clearer

I completely disagree. To put it simply, the Greek original does not agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:15. The earliest commentary as well as even some protestant editions of the Bible do not use the Hebrew quotes in ref. to this verse. Quite to the contrary, they ref. the verses from Job, Psalms, and Jude which I posted above.

To put it clearly, The New Living Translation (hardly a Catholic Bible) renders it thus: 1 Corinthians 3 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builders themselves will be saved, but like someone escaping through a wall of flames. I won't belabor this point further.