Posted on 07/31/2002 12:36:33 PM PDT by JMJ333
One major difference between Protestants and Catholics is that Catholics pray for the dead. As Cardinal Ratzinger said so well, "My view is that if Purgatory did not exist, we should have to invent it." Why? "Because few things are as immediate, as human and as widespread - at all times and in all cultures - as prayer for one's own departed dear ones."
Calvin, the Protestant reformer of Geneva, had a woman whipped because she was discovered praying at the grave of her son and hence was guilty, according to Calvin, of "superstition."
"In theory, the Reformation refuses to accept purgatory, and consequently it also rejects prayer for the departed," Cardinal Ratzinger said in "The Ratzinger Report," a book by Vittorio Messori. "In fact, German Lutherans at least have returned to it in practice and have found considerable theological justification for it. Praying for one's departed loved ones is a far too immediate urge to be suppressed; it is a most beautiful manifestation of solidarity, love and assistance, reaching beyond the barrier of death. The happiness or unhappiness of a person dear to me, who has now crossed to the other shore, depends in part on whether I remember or forget him; he does not stop needing my love."
Catholics are not the only ones who pray for the dead. The custom is also a Jewish one, and Catholics traditionally drew upon the Hebrew Bible text of 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, in addition to some New Testament passages, to justify their belief.
Besides the Jews, many ancient peoples also prayed for the deceased. Some societies, such as that of ancient Egypt, were actually "funereal" and built around the practice.
Spanish-speaking Catholics today popularly refer to All Souls Day as El Dia de los Muertos, a relic of the past when the pre-Christian Indians had a Day of the Dead; liturgically, the day is referred to as El Dia de las Animas.
The French Jesuit missionaries in New France in the 17th century easily explained All Souls Day by comparing it to the local Indian Day of the Dead.
Ancestor worship was also well known in China and elsewhere in Asia, and missionaries there in times gone by perhaps had it easier explaining All Souls Day to them, and Christianizing the concept, than they would have to us in the Western world as the 20th century draws to a close.
The urge to pray for the dead is deep in the human spirit, which rebels against the concept of annihilation after death. Although there is some evidence for a Christian liturgical feast akin to our All Souls Day as early as the fourth century, the Church was slow to introduce such an observance because of the persistence, in Europe, of more ancient pagan rituals for the dead. In fact, the Protestant reaction to praying for the dead may be based more on these survivals and a deformed piety from pre-Christian times than on the true Catholic doctrine as expressed by either the Western or the Eastern Church. The doctrine of purgatory, rightly understood as praying for the dead, should never give offense to anyone who professes faith in Christ.
When we discuss All Souls Day, we look at a liturgical commemoration which predated doctrinal formulation itself, since the Church often clarifies only that which is being undermined or threatened. The first clear documentation for this celebration comes from Isidore of Seville (d. 636; the last of the great Western Church Fathers), whose monastic rule includes a liturgy for all the dead on the day after Pentecost.
The date of November 2 for the liturgical commemoration of the faithful departed was set by St. Odilo (962-1049), who was the abbot of Cluny in France. Before that, other dates had been observed around the Christian world, and the Armenians still use Easter Monday for this purpose. He issued a decree that all the monasteries of the congregation of Cluny were annually to keep this feast. On November 1, the bell was to be tolled and afterward the Office of the Dead was to be recited in common, and on the next day all the priests would celebrate Mass for the repose of the souls in purgatory.
The observance of the Benedictines of Cluny was soon adopted by other Benedictines and by the Carthusians. Pope Sylvester in 1003 approved and recommended the practice. Eventually, the parish clergy introduced this liturgical observance, and from the 11th to the 14th century, it spread in France, Germany, England and Spain. Finally, in the 14th century, Rome placed the day of the commemoration of all the faithful departed in the official books of the Western or Latin Church. November 2 was chosen in order that the memory of all the holy spirits, both of the saints in heaven and of the souls in purgatory, should be celebrated in two successive days. In this way the Catholic belief in the Communion of Saints would be expressed.
Since for centuries the Feast of All Saints had already been celebrated on November 1, the memory of the departed souls in purgatory was placed on the following day. All Saints Day goes back to the fourth century, but was finally fixed on November 1 by Pope Gregory in 835. The two feasts bind the saints-to-be with the almost-saints and the already-saints before the resurrection from the dead.
On All Souls Day, can we pray for those in limbo? The notion of limbo is not ancient in the Church, and was a theological extrapolation to provide explanation for cases not included in the heaven-purgatory-hell triad. Limbo does not appear as a thesis to be taught in the new Universal Catechism of the Catholic Church.
In fact, Cardinal Ratzinger was in favor of the notion of limbo being set aside. In "The Ratzinger Report," he said, "Limbo was never a defined truth of faith. Personally - and here I am speaking more as a theologian and not as Prefect of the Congregation - I would abandon it since it was only a theological hypothesis. It formed part of a secondary thesis in support of a truth which is absolutely of first significance for faith, namely, the importance of baptism. To put it in the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God' (John 3:5). One should not hesitate to give up the idea of limbo, if need be (and it is worth noting that the very theologians who proposed 'limbo' also said that parents could spare the child limbo by desiring its baptism and through prayer); but the concern behind it must not be surrendered. Baptism has never been a side issue for faith; it is not now, nor will it ever be."
The doctrine of purgatory, upon which the liturgy of All Souls rests. is formulated in canons promulgated by the Councils of Florence (1439) and Trent (1545-1563). The truth of the doctrine existed before its clarification, of course, and only historical necessities motivated both councils to pronounce when they did. Acceptance of this doctrine still remains a required belief of Catholic faith.
What about indulgences? Indulgences from the treasury of grace in the Church are applied to the departed on All Souls Day, as well as on other days, according to the norms of ecclesiastical law. The faithful make use of their intercessory role in prayer to ask the Lord's mercy upon those who have died. Essentially, the practice urges the faithful to take responsibility. This is the opinion of Michael Morrissey in the Dictionary of Catholic Spirituality: "Since the Church has taught that death is not the end of life, then neither is it the end of our relationship with loved ones who have died, who along with the saints make up the Body of Christ in the 'Church Triumphant."' This assumes, of course, that they died in a state of grace and are finished with purification via purgatory.
Morrissey adds that "the diminishing theological interest in indulgences, today is due to an increased emphasis on the sacraments, the prayer life of Catholics and an active engagement in the world as constitutive of the spiritual life. More soberly, perhaps, it is due to an individualistic attitude endemic in modern culture that makes it harder to feel responsibility for, let alone solidarity with, dead relatives and friends."
As with everything Christian, then, All Souls Day has to do with the mystery of charity, that divine love overcomes everything, even death. Bonds of love uniting us creatures, living and dead, and the Lord Who is resurrected, are celebrated both on All Saints Day and on All Souls Day each year.
All who have been baptized into Christ and have chosen Him will continue to live in Him. The grave does not impede progress toward a closer union with Him. It is only this degree of closeness to Him which we consider when we celebrate All Saints one day, and All Souls the next.
Purgatory is a great blessing because it shows those who love God how they failed in love, and heals their ensuing shame. Most of us have neither fulfilled the commandments nor failed to fulfill them. Our very mediocrity shames us. Purgatory fills in the void. We learn finally what to fulfill all of them means. Most of us neither hate nor fail completely in love. Purgatory teaches us what radical love means, when God remakes our failure to love in this world into the perfection of love in the next.
As the sacraments on earth provide us with a process of transformation into Christ, so purgatory continues that process until the likeness to Him is completed. It is all grace. Actively praying for the dead is that holy mitzvah or act of charity on our part which hastens that process. The Church encourages it and does it with special consciousness and in unison on All Souls Day, even though it is always and everywhere salutary to pray for the dead.
The Church Fathers and some protestant Bibles like the NASB cross-reference the passage with Job 23:10; Ps 66:10, 12; Jude 23 for comparison and clarification.
Using the King James Version: 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
The construction after the colon "but he himself shall be saved" is then followed by a clause referring directly to the nominative "he himself" -- so it may read "but he himself shall be saved; yet he himself shall be saved as by (with, from, in, through) fire.
Let me ask you this since you don't accept that the disciples and early doctors of the church had authority to teach doctrine: How do you know that the right books were put into the bible? How do you know what constitutes the New Testament canon? How do you know for certain that these 27 books in your New Testament are in fact inspired and should be in the New Testament? And how do you know for certain that maybe some inspired books haven’t been left out of the canon?
And what about the fact that this doctrine was unquestioned until the late 1500s? You are saying that Christianity was wrong for the first 1500 years?
Becky
Becky
If I don't answer it just means I went to bed and will answer tomorrow. =)
Becky
Ah baloney! Calvin and Luther were not very big on religious freedom either. You are applying modern values to the Middle Ages. Read any unbiased history of Christianity and your eyes will be opened. The Reformers, were no better when it came to the persecution of those who did not agree with them. And both Catholics and Protestants burned witches at the stake. Which I expect you would agree was just as wrong as buring Christians at the stake. That was how it was back then. There was really no such thing as freedom of religion. If your ruler was a Catholic you better be a Catholic, and if he was a Protestant you better be a Protestant. Brush up on your history if you care about the truth. And get a decent, history book, something with recent scholarship, not crap written by somebody with an agenda.
Let's just do a common sense analogy. Let's say a man, not a Christian, robs a bank. He has to go to jail for 20 years. After he has served one year of his sentence, he repents and becomes a Christian. It is a genuine conversion. Does he get to go to the judge and say, "Okay your Honor, I have accepted Christ, and he paid the price for my sin of bank robbery. Therefore you have to let me out of jail. I don't have to serve the remaining 19 years of my sentence. Christ has perfected me." Of course not! The man still has to pay an temporal (earthly) price for his sin. And a Christian he accepts this. Christ's death on the cross did not free us from having to pay a temporal price for our sins. What it did do was make it possible for us to attain heaven if we repent of them and accept him. Christ paid the eternal price but not the temporal price.
Another example. A guy is a drug addict. Because of this he he beat his wife, impoverished his children and robbed many people to feed his habit. Then he coverts and through the grace of God his sin is forgiven. But life does not just turn rosy for him. He has a lot of work to do to get back the love and trust of his family. He still has to pay a price, even though Christ has forgiven his sin. If he dies before he has fully paid that price, then he will pay it in purgatory, even though he is forgiven and knows heaven awaits him. Some of his purgatory will be on earth as he struggles with the effects of his sin and pain it has caused others and the hardship of putting his life back together.
It is common sense and biblical. And it is not only that but it is simple justice too. If a murderer goes unpunished during this life but converts to Christ on his death bed, by your logic he goes straight to heaven. Whereas a murderer who spent 40 years in prison and then converts on his death bed, by your logic also goes straight to heaven. But that is unjust because one was punished for 40 years and the other was never punished.
What? Salvation is not a reward? He will be saved but not very happy? I don't understand.
It is inspired by God, only Luther did not think so and he got rid of it. You are putting your trust in Luther.
In memorium of our dear Jewish brethren who perished in the Holocaust, we say Kaddish, which has in it the power to keep those precious souls alive, and link us to them in a most appropriate manner. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Throughout the millenium, Jews have remembered their loved ones with the recitation of the Kaddish. Kaddish is the most caring and respectful way we can manifest our undying love. Kaddish is the way we actively demonstrate that a Jewish soul is never forgotten. If you or members of your family are unable to fully tend to the spiritual needs of your dearly departed -- let us help. "Grant atonement to your nation Israel whom you have redeemed." (Deut:21:8) The Rabbis explained in the Pesikta: " ... this refers to the dead who can receive atonement thorugh the charity of the living." Thus we learn that the dead derive benefit from charity which the living give on their behalf ... This also applies to one who recites KADDISH or any blessing publicly in the synagogue. (R' Bachya, Deut:21:6) If you or members of your family are unable to fully tend to the spiritual needs of your dearly departed -- let us help. Is it difficult for you or your friend to go to Shul (attend a service in a synagogue) to say Kaddish? Do you know someone who would like Kaddish to be recited yearly on the Yahrzeit for parents, grandparents, in-laws or a friend? Rabbi I. Kurlander and his dedicated rabbinical staff will personally say Kaddish for the soul of your beloved. To find out more about the origin of Kaddish and the special power it has to perpetuate every Jewish soul, please call or write to The Kaddish Foundation. Rabbi Kurlander and his staff are available and most willing to assist you, 24 hours a day. This foundation is approved and highly endorsed by leading Rabbis in America, Canada, and Israel.
The RCC has been studying the bible for 2,000 years but well, okay, if you want to give advise on how to study the bible, fine but...I am going with the RCC on this one. ;o>
What does the bible mean in Heb. were it says, one scrafice perfected believers forever. What you are saying by believeing in purgatory is that you weren't perfected by the one sacrafice, that you have to add to it by going to purgatory to finish the job.
Becky
Could you please give me the scripture you are referring to here. Thanks.
Becky
I am sorry, I am not real sharp, especially after 10:00 at night, I missed this. But in finding it today, I still see no specific scripture reference to why you believe this. Can you give me one/some?
Becky
I completely disagree. To put it simply, the Greek original does not agree with your interpretation of 1 Cor 3:15. The earliest commentary as well as even some protestant editions of the Bible do not use the Hebrew quotes in ref. to this verse. Quite to the contrary, they ref. the verses from Job, Psalms, and Jude which I posted above.
To put it clearly, The New Living Translation (hardly a Catholic Bible) renders it thus: 1 Corinthians 3 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builders themselves will be saved, but like someone escaping through a wall of flames. I won't belabor this point further.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.