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Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives
Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

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To: RochesterFan
Ping there Rochester:>)
141 posted on 09/30/2002 8:21:26 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
The question CJ is HOW you know those things and your neighbor does not??

Because I have been remiss in sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with my neighbor.

142 posted on 09/30/2002 8:32:54 PM PDT by computerjunkie
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To: RnMomof7; RochesterFan
UNCLE!! TIMEOUT!! See? I KNEW I shouldn't have brought this up!! :)

Seriously, I don't mind the questions...makes me dig and think. However, it's getting too late for me tonight to delve into all of this, so I need to continue this later...

I've said this before. I have a very simple faith...not naive...simple!

143 posted on 09/30/2002 8:33:30 PM PDT by computerjunkie
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To: RnMomof7
Yes, I believe one of the men crucified with Jesus was saved at the cross. (Luke 23:39-43)
144 posted on 09/30/2002 8:36:55 PM PDT by computerjunkie
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To: computerjunkie
Don't let them turn you to te dark side girl, your simple faith in what God has told us, is true.

BigMack

145 posted on 09/30/2002 8:49:25 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7
But if the reference is to all of God’s people, then the world will end when the last of the elect (a large but finite number) has repented and believed.

Sure sounds like you're denying God's sovereignty here: the end of the world can't come until the last of the elect chooses to repent and believe. So long as that last person holds out, the world can't come to an end?

146 posted on 09/30/2002 9:10:38 PM PDT by CubicleGuy
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To: CubicleGuy; RnMomof7
***So long as that last person holds out...***

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me."
-- Jesus, the Real Jesus -- not the LDS spirit brother of Lucifer
147 posted on 09/30/2002 9:14:05 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Jesus, the Real Jesus -- not the LDS spirit brother of Lucifer

Ah, you mean the fictional Jesus of your erroneous scriptural exegesis, performed without aid of revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost? That Jesus? The one that's required to wait on that one, single, solitary, final repentant soul?

148 posted on 09/30/2002 9:26:19 PM PDT by CubicleGuy
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To: CubicleGuy
***The one that's required to wait on that one, single, solitary, final repentant soul?***

He's not required to wait. He drags us to Himself as and when He pleases.

Perhaps the last one will be you! That would be great.

149 posted on 09/30/2002 9:33:08 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Do you have a man REALLY called of God as your pastor, that is a strong leader, and has not watered down the gospel?

More than one HERE.


150 posted on 09/30/2002 10:56:16 PM PDT by ppaul
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Hey!

Do you have the link for this article?
(It did not turn up when I searched the LA Times' site.)

151 posted on 09/30/2002 11:45:18 PM PDT by ppaul
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; RnMomof7; computerjunkie
Don't let them turn you to the dark side girl, your simple faith in what God has told us, is true.

Hi BigMack. Let me throw down the gauntlet. Show us all how any analysis of the Scriptures that has been presented by those of us this group would classify as "Calvinists" has violated the immediate context of any of the passages or the broad context of Scripture. I contend that the exegesis is sound. (I don't like the label "Calvinist" myself becase the doctrine predatates Calvin and I would say is the orthodox position of Peter and Paul.) The problem is that autonomous man does not like being brought squarely to grips with the idea that he is not the absolute source of authority in the universe. One does not have to like a conclusion for it to be true. God is the sovereign ruler over all of the universe he made, including the hearts and will of men. That said, it is also true that God is good and not the author of sin. The two statements are not mutually exclusive and the Scriptures are not ashamed to proclaim both truths.

152 posted on 10/01/2002 3:44:34 AM PDT by RochesterFan
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To: angelo; RnMomof7; fortheDeclaration
Arminians believe that man is not quite dead from the fall and has enough spiritual life to desire God and choose Christ. They would believe he is not born again (regenerated ) UNTIL he is saved

Rn is mischaracterizing the free choice (Arminian) position for effect....clear contrast.

Actually we believe that man is dead from the fall. We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice. (We call that prevenient grace....God's grace that comes before salvation.)

Calvinists actually also believe in prevenient grace but in a different way. The see the prevenient grace of God FULLY AND COMPLETELY saving a person BEFORE that person believes. In other words, they think that for a brief moment of time UNBELIEVERS are saved.

We believe that no man is saved until he believes.

153 posted on 10/01/2002 5:00:29 AM PDT by xzins
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Barna cites "born again" as Christians. Catholic christians are not "born again". So we fall out of the loop.

Also, a lot of people "born again" are at church for the spiritual goodies/ spiritual high. Remember the parable of the sower? A lot of seeds get choked by weed/ love of the world.

Finally, you forget that a lot of non believers are ethical people. a lot of church people are sinners. A lot of the "good" people who aren't religious were born with (to use CS Lewis' term) "good digestion". They have a bit of wealth, a healthy body, and a good personality. They don't feel the need for God in their lives, since they lack nothing (they think).

I know druggies and drunks who desperately seek God, but fall again and again into their sin. Ditto for gays. Ditto for people with bad tempers, people with bad marriages, etc. But they repent and try again. They go to church not because they are "saved", i.e. born again and perfect, but because they are sinners and seek to change.

Is the church a house of God, or a hospital for sinners? Did Christ come to save the sinner, or to make the perfect feel good inside?

154 posted on 10/01/2002 5:20:18 AM PDT by LadyDoc
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To: xzins; drstevej; RochesterFan; RnMomof7
We believe not that he has enough spiritual life left to desire God, but that the Lord enlivens him to see the choice before him. In that momentarily enlivened/enlightened state he can see clearly to make a choice

Is that kind of like being the undead? He is still dead, but the "Spook" has turned him into a Zombie or something like that wherein he fumbles around looking for a way to become alive again. Perhaps you could write to the Buffy series and see if it is good enough for an episode.
155 posted on 10/01/2002 5:40:54 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody
No different than your own version of prevenient grace, woody. You have them saved before they believe. Whatever finger you point at us, you have 3 pointing at yourself.

But really, you must answer "what" is dead. Because the human's body is clearly living.....otherwise, there's no issue is there?
156 posted on 10/01/2002 5:44:39 AM PDT by xzins
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To: RnMomof7; computerjunkie
Well, might as well dive in with both feet!! I believe God "predestined" everybody.

So God failed?

Can God create a rock he can't pick up?

Becky

157 posted on 10/01/2002 5:51:24 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: RnMomof7
The order IS important because it is about the sovereignity of God

IF God wanted too, do you think He could have given us freewill to choose? Do you think that if He gave everyone free choice He could have foreknew who would accept and who would reject, then use that knowledge to forward His plans? Would that be possible for a sovereign God?

Becky

158 posted on 10/01/2002 5:58:09 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: CCWoody
Where exactly was I boasting? About being a "tare," as you say?

When you boasted that you get pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. That is the definition of schadenfreude.

I know the definition. 'twas I who used the word, remember?

It is a malicious pleasure and the kind of pleasure that only a spiritual Tare would get.

I am so glad you Calvinists are all perfect. I admit that it is a pleasure that is sinful, and an impulse I should avoid. But I can learn to overcome it. Can you get over your smug habit of judging others unto eternal damnation?

Oh, BTW, Jesus is not describing the way things are in His church, but the way things are in His kingdom. You Roman Catholics are always getting that confused.

I think we've shown what side confusion reigns on. Or have you and Mack reconciled your differences?

SD

159 posted on 10/01/2002 5:59:35 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Dave are you saying in your soothing way that confusion doesn't reign in the catholic church? What about the polls I have read lately about the number of catholic's who do NOT believe in the "real presense"

Becky

160 posted on 10/01/2002 6:04:36 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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