Mormons and Muslims? How do you all see each other?

http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/PECKDD/LDS_View_Muhammad.pdf ^

[TheDon]

"(2) both had violent early histories (although Mormonism has become peaceful, while Islam has not)"

Upon further reflection, Judism and Christianity both have violence associated with them in the past as well. King David slaughtered men, women and children to rid the land of Israel of "infidels". In Christianity, we have the Inquisition, the Crusades, and more recently, the murder of abortion providers by "Christians".

Of course, the mainstream of these faiths do not engage or support such violence anymore, while Islam does.

[TheDon]

Well said.

[Quester]

Both (Islam and Mormonism) feature a single prophet receiving a revelation from an angel.

Christianity and Judism also have a prophet, and revelation from an angel, John the Baptist, and or Jesus Christ, and Moses, respectively.

Judaism stands on the the testimony of numerous prophets, numerous visitations by angels, numerous visitations by God Himself, numerous miracles of God, numerous examples of fulfilled prophecy, a recorded history which is verifiable outside of it's own sources, and a collection of writings which are, again, verifiable by those outside of the system of belief.

Christianity adds to that with the incarnation of JESUS (God with us), more examples of fulfilled prophecy, the testimony of numerous apostles, a continuing history which is verifiable outside of it's own sources, and a collection of writings which are, once again, verifiable by those outside of the belief system.

The veracity of Judaism and Christianity rest upon a multitude of information sources.

On the other hand, the veracity of Islam and Mormonism each rest upon the testimony of one man and a few of his associates.

[TheDon]

"On the other hand, the veracity of Islam and Mormonism each rest upon the testimony of one man and a few of his associates."

Actually, we have had something like 13 prophets since Joseph Smith, the first, in a continuous chain since 1830. Along with those prophets are 12 apostles who have been replaced as they pass away, since the 1830s. Not to mention the Seventies, who are also called as special witnesses of Christ.

While Islam has survived with one prophet at its inception, and teaches, from what I understand, that there are to be no more prophets, our prophet and apostles form the foundation of our church. Without them, there is no church.

So Islam has more in common with Judaism and other Christian faiths than our church in the sense that you all don't believe in modern revelation from prophets, we, on the other hand do.

[Technocrat]

Nowhere in scripture do we see Jesus equating anyone other than himself with God. Jesus is "exclusively" equal with God. This is the common and orthodox Christian view, but it is not shared by Mormonism.

Actually, Mormons also believe that at the current time, Jesus is exclusively equal to God (differing only in role). We also believe that to "receive all that the Father hath" will make us equal at some future point to what God is now. Since most other religions that I know of don't seem to have anything on the timeline after the Resurrection, they eliminate that point.

[Quester]

Islam has more in common with Judaism and other Christian faiths than our church in the sense that you all don't believe in modern revelation from prophets, we, on the other hand do.

Actually, Christians do, with some reservations, believe in the continuance of the ministerial office of prophet.

We simply believe that anything a modern-day prophet presents must be in accord with what God had already revealed.

If there is a choice to be made between previous revelation and new revelation, Christians must always opt for the previous.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[ponyespresso]

Actually, we have had something like 13 prophets since Joseph Smith, the first, in a continuous chain since 1830. Along with those prophets are 12 apostles who have been replaced as they pass away, since the 1830s. Not to mention the Seventies, who are also called as special witnesses of Christ.

I have a question. What has been the last revelation to be published by an LDS prophet. Joseph Smith would always write "Thus sayith the Lord!" as if he was giving you the very words that Jesus supposedly spoke to him. But since him (and some of what B. Young said) the LDS prophets have been pretty lean in dispensing the "Thus sayith the Lord" stamp of divinity on their words, haven't they?

I mean look at the D & C; I think only two revelations have been added since Joseph Smith wrote them, right? What's the story?

[TheDon]

A good question. It is a common theme in religious history that when God begins to again reveal his will to his children, that he calls a prophet and reveals that will to the prophet. The prophet then having the job of sharing God's word to the remainder of humanity.

A familiar example would be Moses. He received the 10 commandments, and other revelations, these were written down and became scripture, i.e. most of the OT. Similarly the apostles called by Jesus, and those who were later called by those apostles, wrote down their revelations and these became scriptures, i.e. the NT.

In our day, God called Joseph Smith to be his prophet, and revealed his will to him. This was written down as scripture. Later prophets have also received revelations, and these have been written down as scripture.

Joseph Smith had the role of establishing the Lord's church and thus required a great deal of instruction, in a similar manner as Moses. Later prophets have received further revelations to meet the will of God at the time in which they live.

Not all revelation is recorded as scripture due to the scope and intended audience of the revelation.

If you have ever read the OT or NT, you would be familiar with the phrase "Thus sayith the Lord!" as that used by prophets when they are speaking on behalf of God.

If you wish to hear our current prophet and apostles speak, we are having a General Conference of the Church, worldwide, this weekend. It is available on cable, satellite, and via the internet on the Church website at www.lds.org.

[Technocrat]

The only items to achieve canon status in the last 25 years are the proclamation giving blacks the right to hold the priesthood (1977), and the Proclamation on the Family (1995).

[Grig]

Several of your points are factually incorrect or misleading with respect to Mormon history and beliefes.

1) Mormons recognize all the biblical prophets as such, including the apostles, as well as all of the latter-day prophets, not just Joseph Smith, we 'feature a single prophet' less than the rest of christianity.

2) Mormons were by far the victims of violence in their early history. There were times that they got so fed up with it that they did strike back, but to portray them as a dangerous violent group is not an honest protrayal of their history, nor was forced conversion condoned in any way shape or form.

3) Although Mormons belive that the family unit will continue after this earth life, there is no doctrine on weather that afterlife will include sexual relations or not.

4) To my knowledge, Muslims don't have any prohibition against coffee, tea, or smoking. Mormons enjoy bacon and ham like everyone else.

5) We do not view the BoM as contradicting the NT, we do see it as contridicting men's false interpetations of the NT however. Orthodox christians have their own post-christian creeds.

6) Mormons affirm the divinity of Christ as the 'only begotten of the Father' (John 1:14) No other person can make that claim. The phrase: 'in a peculiar way that affrims the potential godhood of all humans' is misleading and seems to suggest that we don't consider Christ any different than any of us. He is the Son of God and a member of the Godhead, unlike any other.

As for how Mormons view Islam, we extend the love of Christ to them and pray for the day when those nations open up to recieve our missionaries so that we may bring to them the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We do not go around slamming the faith of others, but we humbly testify that in this dispensation the fullness of the gospel, and the authority of God to baptize etc. is only to be found in the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[Grig]

"On the other hand, the veracity of Islam and Mormonism each rest upon the testimony of one man and a few of his associates."

Not so, not with us Mormons. We to claim numerous prophets, numerous visitations by angels, numerous visitations by God Himself, numerous miracles of God, numerous examples of fulfilled prophecy etc. etc. Just because YOU don't know or acknowledge them doesn't change that. I myself have seen the power of the priesthood work miracles, and I'm sure that a great many active members can say the same thing.

[Grig]

"Actually, Mormons also believe that at the current time, Jesus is exclusively equal to God (differing only in role). We also believe that to "receive all that the Father hath" will make us equal at some future point to what God is now. "

I've got to nit-pic what you just said, although we belive that in time we may become equal in perfection and in glory and power, whatever dominion we achieve is still a portion of His dominion, so we are never equal with Him in every way, and He will always reign over us. We are always His children, He is always our Father.

[Grig]

"We simply believe that anything a modern-day prophet presents must be in accord with what God had already revealed."

But what about the ending of the Law of Moses, one day it's taboo to eat pork, the next day God says it's OK. We take the view that there are some things that are eternal principles (ie: being clean before God) and there are the ways those principles are put into practice (don't eat pork). Practices can change at God's command according to His wisdom, so being too rigid about the past can mislead a person.

[Grig]

If you think that every revelation requires some kind of addition to the cannon, you are mistaken. At the restoration, a lot had to be revealed and recorded because there was a great need for a lot of information in lot of different areas that could not be had any other way. In this day and age revelation is no less important than it was then, but the Lord expects us to listen to what has already been revealed first.

When they decide where the next temple will be located, they do so by revelation, when they call a new apostle, 70, Stake President, Bishop etc. it is done by revelation, when they institute something like the perpetual education fund, it is done by revelation. When the Bishop calls a new Primary Teacher, it is done by revelation. If you hunger for signs and wonders, it is not our disposition to try and please you that way. If you seek the word of God, you can go to any General Conference session this weekend and listen to what is said there. We consider the talks given in General Conf. to be the Word of God, on par with scripture.

[Quester]

But what about the ending of the Law of Moses, one day it's taboo to eat pork, the next day God says it's OK. We take the view that there are some things that are eternal principles (ie: being clean before God) and there are the ways those principles are put into practice (don't eat pork). Practices can change at God's command according to His wisdom, so being too rigid about the past can mislead a person.

Paul dealt with the Law of Moses in the New Testament.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

And, having so dealt with the Law, Paul clearly declares that we come into the family of God by our faith in the accomplished work of JESUS, the Christ. There is no more to it than that. This is the Good News, the Gospel, ... that God has saved us through His Son.

And it is this that Paul refers to in the following quotation ... the subverting of the gospel. He, in effect, says ... Let no one, be it man, or angel, ... even myself, come before you and persuade you that there is more to it than this. God has done it. We need only accept that. Anything else is subversion.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

[Technocrat]

I agree with you that Paul is talking both about the Law of Moses and about the Law of the Gospel (as presented by Jesus) when he says the by the law alone no man is saved - it only serves to help us know what is sinful. However, faith in Christ is like a seed. If you have it, you are saved. but how can you reap the fruits of that seed without the works that Christ commanded us to do? James discusses that in James 2:

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

One must ask one's self, based on these scriptures - is it better to merely be saved in Christ, with faith only, or to be alive in Christ, by exercising that faith?


Beware the same trap that the Jews fell in, by citing Galatians (or Revelations) - there is a similar passage in Deuteronomy.

[Grig]

Point was, if God can change a practice in the past, who is man to say He can't do the same today? You admit it was done after all.

As for Galatians 1:8, that goes with what I said about principles being eternal. For the record, it is the LDS position that our teachings are the gospel as Christ taught it, and that orthodox chrisitanity has lost and altered those teachings over the ages. If your intent is to use those verses to show that LDS doctrine is 'another gospel' you have a lot more work to do than to just quote those verses. There is much in the writings of first century christians that indicates their teachings were the same as our teachings. The current orthodoxy did not really emerge untill centuries later.

This is one reason why we feel prophets are important in every age, so that the principles are still adhered to and so that the practice of them can continue in according to how God's wisdom wishes it.

[Quester]

Yes, I agree that a saving faith in JESUS should result in viable demonstrations of that faith.

And as to what God would have us to do ...

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.

5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

16 Rejoice evermore.

17 Pray without ceasing.

18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

19 Quench not the Spirit.

20 Despise not prophesyings.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

There's more, but I think that this is an adequate start.

[drstevej]

***Point was, if God can change a practice in the past, who is man to say He can't do the same today?***

Looks like Joseph & Brigham made some sweeping changes...

1- Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them --- something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them --- namely, that From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things... "...no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith....

2- Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance... into the mansion where God and Christ are --- I with you and you with me.

3- I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation --- the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven."

(Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

[restornu]

I am confused fish for when I first read this I thought it was the text and not your VANITY!


This is the original text!
http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/PECKDD/LDS_View_Muhammad.pdf


Thank you for keeping it polite, but when one read the text there is nothing relative to your vanity!