Do babies go to Heaven?

[Jael]

The real question for the self-proclaimed "independent Bible Believer Christians" of our Modern Age is, are they actually willing to face THE BIBLE? They don't have any clue. They won't even know what hit them.

How silly, what a worthless comment. You are talking about people who KNOW they have a perfect Bible, who trust God and KNOW he keeps his Word and preserved His Word. We KNOW where the Word of God is today. You couldn't say the same for yourself.

[Jael]

Great way to end the year Game..in defense of the Sovereignity of God

Who said God is not Sovereign?

Romans 9:32  Wherefore? Because **they sought** it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone...

[xzins]

OK, you're an independent.

If you wish to be forthcoming about which sides of the great theological debates of the centuries that you take, feel free to add on to what you say.

[Jael]

I am a fundamentalist. I attend a church that is baptistic in nature, meaning that the only people considered for baptism would be according to Scripture. They would have to be believers.

Baptism isn't a salvational plank in my doctrine, neither is denomination.

[Jael]

My apologies for this comment "You are so misguided you stay in an apostate church which ordains women and sodomites?" I was speaking to what I thought were Presbyterian actions, in general. I now find that your denomination does not seem to follow those actions. :-)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

To: OrthodoxPresbyterian ~~ I guess you and I will wind up exactly splitting the write-in vote. 203 posted on 01/01/2003 9:22 AM PST by the_doc

(grin)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I follow no man made creeds. Those are silly. 207 posted on 01/01/2003 10:03 AM PST by Jael

As expected.

Well, as I said... get 'em to the Bible, and by Grace, we'll get 'em to the Creeds.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I will credit your lack of sensical posting last night to the drinking. Proverbs 20:1 ¶Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

As you like it, my dear. For myself, I shan't let a numerical typo dissuade me from fitting Deuteronomical year-end merriment:

Deuteronomy 14: 26 -- And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

My apologies for this comment "You are so misguided you stay in an apostate church which ordains women and sodomites?" I was speaking to what I thought were Presbyterian actions, in general. I now find that your denomination does not seem to follow those actions. :-)

Well, I shall try not to credit your unseemly haste to the drinking.
Apology accepted.

How silly, what a worthless comment. You are talking about people who KNOW they have a perfect Bible, who trust God and KNOW he keeps his Word and preserved His Word. We KNOW where the Word of God is today. You couldn't say the same for yourself. 221 posted on 01/01/2003 11:20 AM PST by Jael

Er, okay... I take it that means you're ready to begin.

Let's start at the very point which your beliefs begin to diverge from the teachings of the Bible... the Fall of Man, in Genesis.

Genesis 2: 16-17, 3:4 --And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.... And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Now, what does the Bible teach us about the Fall of Man?

***Genesis 2:16-17 -- And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
***Genesis 8:21b -- Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
***Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
***Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
***Isaiah 64: 6 -- For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
***Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Alright, then... let us, with Saint Augustine, re-capitulate the Biblical Doctrine of Original Sin.

The Fallen and unregenerate Natural Man is spiritually dead to God (Gen 2) and every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8) and he is estranged from God from the womb (Ps 58) and he is spiritually insane (Ecc 9) and his "righteous" deeds are offensive to God (Is 64) and he does not seek God (Rom 3) and he never Wills that which is Good (Rom 7) and he hates God (Rom 8) and he never Wills the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8) and he cannot accept the Spirit (John 14) and he cannot even understand the things of the Spirit (I Cor 2).

The Question is NOT "whether or not God gives man a Choice".
The Question is, "What Choice will an unregenerate Man make?"

It is your position that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will, of the motivations of his own unregenerated heart, choose the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus.

Since the Bible strictly dis-allows any man-made theology which proposes that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice (which is impossible, according to Romans 8), your theology directly contradicts Scripture (Romans 8:5-8, and all the other passages listed above).

[the_doc]

Since the Bible strictly dis-allows any man-made theology which proposes that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice (which is impossible, according to Romans 8), your theology directly contradicts Scripture (Romans 8:5-8, and all the other passages listed above).

Spoken like a true Baptist (grin).

[RnMomof7]

No snow..icing now

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Spoken like a true Baptist (grin). 229 posted on 01/01/2003 2:01 PM PST by the_doc

:-)

Well, I'm just repeating what I originally learned in the Continental-AnaBaptist-derived church where I was baptized in my younger days.

---

THE VAUDOIS CHRISTIANS JOIN THE REFORMATION

There can be no question that the Waldenses were Calvinists from the time of their earliest contacts with the great theologians of the Protestant Reformation. The 1532 confession of faith at Angrogne, which resulted from those contacts, contains these clear statements of belief:

• All those that have been, and shall be saved, have been elected of God, before the foundation of the world.
• It is impossible that those that are appointed to salvation, should not be saved.
• Whosoever upholds free-will denieth absolutely predestination, and the grace of God.

The Angrogne confession was a direct result of the contact that the Waldenses had with the Reformers in the year 1530. The story is in many ways a thrilling one; the beleaguered, dispirited Waldenses of Savoy, fearing themselves to be the only true Christians left in the world and facing the possibility of total extermination at the hands of their Catholic enemies, suddenly began to hear accounts of a great religious movement sweeping the lands to the north of them, in which men and women were rejecting Catholic falsehoods and turning back to the truths of the Bible as the Waldenses understood them. Two representatives were sent from Piedmont to Basel to meet with the Lutheran Reformer Oecolampadius, who was astonished and pleased to learn of the existence of the faithful Waldenses who had preserved the evangelical faith from the time of the apostles, and he gave them much advice and godly counsel. (Williamson, Ibid.)

A manifold interest belongs to the meeting of these two churches. Each is a miracle to the other. The preservation of the Vaudois Church for so many ages, amid the fires of persecution, made her a wonder to the Church of the sixteenth century. The bringing up of the latter from the dead made her a yet greater wonder to the Church of the first century. These two churches compare their respective beliefs: they find that their creeds are not twain, but one. They compare the sources of their knowledge: they find that they have both of them drawn their doctrine from the Word of God; they are not two Churches, they are one. They are the elder and younger members of the same glorious family, the children of the same father. (Wylie, “History of the Waldenses”)

The Covenant Line: From Eden to Independence Hall

---

[RnMomof7]

I posted the words of Jesus Christ saying he will draw all men to him. Now, the problem is yours. All of you ignored that whole post.

Jael..I told everyone "all my kids were here for thanksgiving".....ohhhhhhhhh wait..in actuality they were not ALL here..the local kids were ALL here

All does not ALWAYS mean ALL ...it more normally means all of a type or sort..

No man can come to the father unless he draws them..so are you sayong them that the will of man is stronger than the will of God?

Jhn 12:32   And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

Jhn 12:38   That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?   

  Jhn 12:39   Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

     Jhn 12:40   He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Jael ...does God demand double payment ?

[RnMomof7]

I don't take people like you seriously. You are so misguided you stay in an apostate church which ordains women and sodomites? You have nothing to teach me. You don't have enough discenment to see that ALL of the man made churches that came out of Rome have nothing to show for themselves today except a slavish devotion to the trappings of Rome without the name.

LOL Jael..Calvinists do not ordain woman or homosexuals..you have us confused with your doctrinal brothers the Arminians..

[RnMomof7]

Jael you have NO SCRIPTURE to support absolution of infants or children...NON..You have NO scripture to give an age of accountability...NONE..That is a Roman tradition you cling to while you acuss us of being Romans..Jael you say you have NO doctrine only scripture..so show us the CLEAR scripture that all infants and children are saved

As OP pointed out the Holy Spirit can quicken an infant ion the womb if He chooses..and we do have scripture for that

[RnMomof7]

DO I then gather you are unchurched?

[RnMomof7]

Romans 9:32  Wherefore? Because **they sought** it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone...

No Jael you do not believe God is sovereign..you believe man is sovereign..God has to sit and wait to see if His creation will "choose" him..Christ did not save anyone at the cross..man saves himself by his own faith ...

Mans choice + Gods grace =salvation...Man is sovereign..you only pay Him lip service

Isa 29:13   Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

[RnMomof7]

I am a fundamentalist. I attend a church that is baptistic in nature, meaning that the only people considered for baptism would be according to Scripture. They would have to be believers.

jael that is self deception...you follow the doctrines of Arminism..if you doubt that go to your Pastor and tell him you are now believe in election..his ears will turn red and he will argue with you because he is an Arminian...

[Jael]

jael that is self deception...you follow the doctrines of Arminism..if you doubt that go to your Pastor and tell him you are now believe in election..his ears will turn red and he will argue with you because he is an Arminian...

Where do you people get all this following of men from? I follow the Bible. You guys are the one following man made doctrines!!!

[Jael]

Well, as I said... get 'em to the Bible, and by Grace, we'll get 'em to the Creeds.

Why do you think you need a creed written by a man?

[Jael]

All doesn't mean all to you. Then you have to deny what Christ himself said to support your doctrine. The ELECT is due to what? FOREKNOWLEDGE. :-)