Do babies go to Heaven?

[xzins]

Well if After 2 years of being on these threads you do not know your are deaf

I'm not deaf.

Alright, Steve, you can share #1....recount completed.

Rn, all of the Bible is the word of God. I'm sure you don't disagree with that. How I fit it together is fallible. The fact that it is infallible takes priority.

[RnMomof7]

I know that some churches baptize a baby for a sign of the covenant ..I do not agreee with that I see it as a believers sacrament.

[xzins]

That wasn't passive agressive. I pretty well smacked you in the face with it.

You were so busy playing politics with your religion that you wouldn't give a straight answer. That's ok, and I still think you're a good person, but you were so into the "argument" that you weren't listening.

I've never really had that problem with OP. I might not like his answers but he will directly answer a question.

[xzins]

I agree.

[RnMomof7]

You are pathetic

[xzins]

Grow up.

[Jael]

was the cross a crap shoot..did Jesus die for none?

Is it a crap shoot if he just did that for a few? Or is it more in keeping with Scripture to believe that He did it for all, as he said, but again, as He said, some obeyed not the Gospel.

The stunning fact is that He did it anyway, knowing that some would not accept Him.

John 1:7  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

2 Peter 3:9  ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Jael]

"I know that some churches baptize a baby for a sign of the covenant" The OPC believes that it engrafts an unbelieving infant into Christ.

"Baptism is a sacrament, wherein the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, doth signify and seal our engrafting into Christ"

That's a heresy sister. :-)Washing with water never saved the first soul, especially one who is an unbeliever.

..I do not agreee with that I see it as a believers sacrament.

There ya go!!! Now yer talkin'!!!

[xzins]

What you cite below is true. It is also true that Jesus said, "You did not choose me but I chose you..." All of it is true.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

2 Peter 3:9 ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[RnMomof7]

They have a rather confusing doctrine..they do not believes it saves the infant (like the RC's) ,but they liken it to circumcision ...an outward sign of Gods covenant with his people..

I do not agree but because they do not teach baptsimal regeneration I do not see it as "fatal"

I was baptised as an infant..But again after I was saved (as were most of my adult saved kids..)..I believe scriptually it is a Believers sacrament..

[Jael]

It is also true that Jesus said, "You did not choose me but I chose you..." All of it is true. To whom is he speaking? His disciples. Did He choose them? Yes. Does he say that he will draw ALL MEN? Yes, He does.

[xzins]

Jael, you are a disciple, too.

He acted that way at that time. There's no reason to believe He suddenly stops acting that way.

Yes, he does say that he will draw all men. That also is true.

[Precisian]

In my opinion, the reason Arminians are trecherous is because they have the pretense of being adherents of Calvinism.

But when push comes to shove, they default to the slippery slope of "common ground Naturalism" and "choose" to side with the pagans against the authentic Reformed Faith.

For example, after 1609AD in the Netherlands, the Precisian party was hamstrung by its lethal disputation with the Remonstrant party (the Arminians) and was unable to come to the rescue of its Reformed companions being murdered by the military offenses of the Jesuit inspired armies of the Empire.

And next, the same Remonstrant party migrated to England and seeded the "New Learning" of Francis Bacon and the "Independency" of Cromwell that slaughtered the Scottish, English, and Irish Presbyterians.

In America, we do not have a sufficient understanding of the deceit of Arminianism and how it operates to marginalize faithful "Calvinians".

We hobble ourselves by thinking that our greatest adversaries are the obvious adversaries of naturalism and paganism. But we are most vulnerable to those who have the pretense of being closest to us, the Arminians.

In my opinion, those who advocate Arminianism are our most trecherous foes inside the Body of Christ because they, like mean-spirited brothers in a family feud, are most intimate with us.

Arminians "play the same music" as we do, "wear the same clothes", and claim the same heritage, but then choose to be neutral when the more blood-thirsty Counter-Reformationists attack us.

Naturalist pagans love to promote the Arminian sectarians against us because the Arminians do their dirty work and heavy lifting while they wait to pick up the broken pieces of our dispirited Reformed community.

(Think of what happened, for example, in the 1930s when Reformed Protestantism was ravaged by the "modernist" offensive. Who were the spear carriers of the calculated onslaught against the "orthodox Presbyterians?" It was the American Arminianists pretending to be "moderate" and "reasonable"...the lukewarm that Christ Jesus, our Lord and King, instructs us to spit out).

We are wise as serpents to beware of Arminians as our trickiest disputants.

And I am grateful to Free Republic for the forum that makes these issues sharp. For the task, as it has been since 1609AD in the Netherlands, is to...

Be Precise!

[Jael]

No, there were 12 disciples. They could do things I could not. I can't co-opt for myself what Jesus said directly to them.

2 Corinthians 12:12  Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

[RnMomof7]

Bump!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

He does say that He will draw all men.

But consider that most who post on these threads would describe the Lord's saving grace as the strongest, most powerful, sublime force ever experienced.

And then you insist there are mortals who can willingly ignore and even reject that force.

How powerful is man's desire to control life, destiny, salvation...even God.

Lay it down, brother. Hubris is a heavy burden and God wants you strong for the turmoil ahead.

[Jael]

And then you insist there are mortals who can willingly ignore and even reject that force.

Actually, God says that. He says He will take vengeance on those who disobey the Gospel, who don't know him.

And, I am a sister. :-)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Hello, sister.

But I was addressing xzins, a brother. 8~)

[MarMema]

the Lord's saving grace as the strongest, most powerful, sublime force ever experienced.

How I wish someone would post a thread about just this very thing. And thank you for a powerful post of your own!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Let's start at the very point which your beliefs begin to diverge from the teachings of the Bible... the Fall of Man, in Genesis. ~~ Let's stay with the subject at hand, and my thesis. Paul says no sin is imputed without the law. He also says that without the law he never knew sin. Not that he didn't have a sin nature, or original sin. But until the law told him coveting was a sin, he didn't know. My application of that is to the subject at hand, do babies who die go to Heaven. I believe, based on what Paul says in Romans, and what David said in regards to his son, that they do. Sin isn't imputed to them. Do I believe they are born without sin? No. I do not. No one is. Now, start there.

Alright, so, all who are Conceived in Adam, are conceived in Original Sin. Glad that we agree on that.

Now, what is the spiritual effect of this Original Sin, which brought the Fall of Spiritual Death upon the Race of Men?

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***Genesis 2:16-17 -- And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
***Genesis 8:21b -- Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
***Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
***Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
***Isaiah 64: 6 -- For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
***Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

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Alright, then, ma'am... when the Scriptures expressly declare that the Fallen and unregenerate Natural Man is spiritually dead to God (Gen 2) and every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8) and he is estranged from God from the womb (Ps 58) and he is spiritually insane (Ecc 9) and his "righteous" deeds are offensive to God (Is 64) and he does not seek God (Rom 3) and he never Wills that which is Good (Rom 7) and he hates God (Rom 8) and he never Wills the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8) and he cannot accept the Spirit (John 14) and he cannot even understand the things of the Spirit (I Cor 2).

...Then I must respectfully ask, if the Scriptures be your Guide, why ever would you devote yourself to a man-made theology which proposes that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice (which is impossible, according to Romans 8) to Repent? As such, your theology directly contradicts Scripture (Romans 8:5-8, and all the other passages listed above).

I'm still waiting on OP to address what the spiritual things are in a previous post.

Well, I'd hate to be amiss in my argumentation. So, let's consider the point:

Do you even know what "the things of the Spirit are"?1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Of course an unsaved person is not going to know the things God has prepared for us. That in no way means that an unsaved person will not be drawn by Jesus Christ, repent and believe. Posted by Jael to OrthodoxPresbyterian On Religion 01/01/2003 10:34 AM PST #216 of 318

Ma'am, the issue here is not a question of whether or not Jesus Christ will draw all men unto Himself (for did not even the Pharisees say, in John 12:19, that the "whole world" has gone after Him?)... the issue is, of all men whom Jesus is readily willing to receive into the Atonement of His Sacrifice, who will come??

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (John 6:65-66, KJV)

Remember that the Fallen and unregenerate Natural Man is spiritually dead to God (Gen 2) and every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8) and he is estranged from God from the womb (Ps 58) and he is spiritually insane (Ecc 9) and his "righteous" deeds are offensive to God (Is 64) and he does not seek God (Rom 3) and he never Wills that which is Good (Rom 7) and he hates God (Rom 8) and he never Wills the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8) and he cannot accept the Spirit (John 14) and he cannot even understand the things of the Spirit (I Cor 2).

By claiming that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will select the God-pleasing Choice to Repent and Follow Jesus, your man-made theologies directly contradict the express teaching of Romans 8:5-8.

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And as long as you claim that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will select the God-pleasing Choice to Repent and Follow Jesus, your man-made theologies are AT WAR AGAINST the Infallible Word of God. (Romans 8:5-8)

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Now.... Think about that.