I have so many post from you unanswered I wouldn't even have time to go back and count them. 265 posted on 01/01/2003 7:09 PM PST by JaelPost #228 alone, will do. I've even re-formatted it citing the KJV exclusively, just for you.
(See below)
I still have post outstanding from OP. He needs to address those before I go any where with him.
Where?
Besides, he doesn't use a bible that I recognize as the word of God.
Alright, fine... we'll revisit my Post, using the King James AV (actually, some of my citations are KJV already, this is a composite of several Posts of mine).
Post #228, again, this time exclusively citing the King James AV:
Let's start at the very point which your beliefs begin to diverge from the teachings of the Bible... the Fall of Man, in Genesis.
Genesis 2: 16-17, 3:4 --And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.... And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Now, what does the Bible teach us about the Fall of Man?
***Genesis 2:16-17 -- And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (KJV)
***Genesis 8:21 -- And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (KJV)
***Psalms 58:3 -- The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. (KJV)
***Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (KJV)
***Isaiah 64: 6 -- But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (KJV)
***Romans 3: 10-12, 23 -- As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one... For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (KJV)
***Romans 7: 18 -- For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (KJV)
***Romans 8: 5 - 8 -- For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (KJV)
***John 14:17 -- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (KJV)
***1 Corinthians 2: 14 -- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)
Alright, then... let us, with Saint Augustine, re-capitulate the Biblical Doctrine of Original Sin.
The Fallen and unregenerate Natural Man is spiritually dead to God (Gen 2) and every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood (Gen 8) and he is estranged from God from the womb (Ps 58) and he is spiritually insane (Ecc 9) and his "righteous" deeds are offensive to God (Is 64) and he does not seek God (Rom 3) and he never Wills that which is Good (Rom 7) and he hates God (Rom 8) and he never Wills the God-pleasing choice (Rom 8) and he cannot accept the Spirit (John 14) and he cannot even understand the things of the Spirit (I Cor 2).
The Question is NOT "whether or not God gives man a Choice".
The Question is, "What Choice will an unregenerate Man make?"
It is your position that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will, of the motivations of his own unregenerated heart, choose the God-pleasing choice to Repent and follow Jesus.
Since the Bible strictly dis-allows any man-made theology which proposes that a Fallen and unregenerate Man will choose the God-pleasing choice (which is impossible, according to Romans 8), your theology directly contradicts Scripture (Romans 8:5-8, and all the other passages listed above).
He c and p's too many things rather than saying what he believes.
Considering that I am "cutting and pasting" entirely my own articles and postings on this website, I can assure you that they do reflect "what I believe". Promise.
Now, about Post #228....
Let's start at the very point which your beliefs begin to diverge from the teachings of the Bible... the Fall of Man, in Genesis.Let's start here. My beliefs don't diverge from Scripture regarding the fall of man.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Let us look further at this chapter in regards to imputed sin.
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Let's stay with the subject at hand, and my thesis. Paul says no sin is imputed without the law. He also says that without the law he never knew sin. Not that he didn't have a sin nature, or original sin. But until the law told him coveting was a sin, he didn't know.
My application of that is to the subject at hand, do babies who die go to Heaven.
I believe, based on what Paul says in Romans, and what David said in regards to his son, that they do. Sin isn't imputed to them.
Do I believe they are born without sin? No. I do not. No one is.
Now, start there.