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God lost His Truth, His Church? (A civil discussion regarding such issues)

Posted on 01/01/2003 12:24:46 PM PST by Jael

Submitted for discussion, the following statement (and all that can follow from it....

"Finally, by God's grace, the central truths of the Bible were rediscovered by Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Reformers."

1.) Did God lose his Truth? Or hide it? Or not allow it to be seen or known? (During the period of time in question.)

2.) Why would something that God has promised would continue, need to be "rediscovered"?

3.) Did He allow a period of time to exist where his church did not?

4.) If one holds to the fact that Rome was not the true church, where was the Body before Rome, and during Rome, but before Luther or Calvin?

5.) How does your belief regarding Rome effect your belief about Scripture? Did God give His Word to Rome? If so, why isn't she orthodox according to Scripture?

In an effort to more fully understand my Calvinist friends, I went searching for information. I found that statement on the website for the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC). I copied it from there, but I believe it probably fits a number of the Calvinistic belief systems. (Different Calvinistic churches.)

In starting this thread, I request that we check our egos at the door. I'd like to discuss this, but I am not interested in people who brag about what they know but never use any Scripture to validate their claims.

Also, this isn't an anti Catholic thread, but I will warn my catholic friends that they will not care for the beliefs many of us have regarding Rome. That doesn't lessen our respect for them as individuals. I invite them to participate here as well, if so desired.

I have friends in other religions who have said (it's a cop out I think, but bear with me) that they could never be __________ (such and such a denomination) because the people who disagree with each other are so rude.

I am not saying I haven't ever been,
(I REPENT!!)
but let's try not to be, ok.?

You never know who is watching and reading, and your testimony matters.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


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Also, regarding Timothy 2:26, when we get that far in the discussion, (or address it now):-)
God say that some are taken captive by the snare of the devil "by his will."

If Satan has a will that can take people captive, but God says they can be recovered by teaching, and by acknowledging the truth, does that mean that the person can choose? Or not? Is the will of Satan stronger than the will of God here? What about the person's own will?

1 posted on 01/01/2003 12:24:46 PM PST by Jael
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To: Jael; RnMomof7
If ya gonna get anywhere ya gotta have someone here to talk, ya need to put together a ping list Jael, so folks will know ya posted something. :)

Mom ping this to your calvin list.

BigMack

2 posted on 01/01/2003 12:58:12 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Jael
If one believes that Catholic Church was "hopeless" at the time of the Reformation, could one make a case for there being other groups that "carried the torch" through the "darkness" of the Middle Ages?

Personally, I don't think so. The well-known "Trail of Blood", for example, has to embrace incredibly heretical (by the standards of Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox!) sects in order to maintain continuity. I see no means by which to establish a claim of a "pure" church, "untainted" by popery.

So how does one solve the obvious problem, from a reformed standpoint? Quite simply by realizing that the truth never "died": while the Church had many problems, and was in need of reform, vital truths lived on, though they may have been limited to individuals. I can gather a number of individuals, mostly monks, whom one might easily consider "semi-evangelical": but still very much within the Church. Were there any that espoused fully Protestant ideas? Probably not- and one must be careful not to strain the beliefs of medieval individuals so as to make them "Reformed".

3 posted on 01/01/2003 12:58:35 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; Bob Z.
Oh! I see! Are there any other Bible Believers around to ping??

How are you folks? We had a great meeting with a home fellowship last night! Was just so grand to ring in the New Year praising God, repenting, praying, singing hymns, and singing from the Psalms!!

I just was so amazed at thinking of where I would of been if God had not of saved me.
4 posted on 01/01/2003 1:09:25 PM PST by Jael
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To: Cleburne
So you believe that Rome was the true church? She just went bad over time?
5 posted on 01/01/2003 1:11:31 PM PST by Jael
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To: Cleburne
I see no means by which to establish a claim of a "pure" church, "untainted" by popery.

In 988 Orthodoxy was brought to Russia by Prince Vladimir, where it flourished.

The years of 1350-1550 were the culmination, considered the "golden age of Orthodoxy" in Russia.

In the eastern church we were physically isolated from the rest of the world and protected as well. In Russia some of the most profound spiritual times were during the middle ages.
Andrei Rublev comes to mind.

6 posted on 01/01/2003 1:26:14 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Jael
If by Rome you mean the Catholic Church, sprung from the times of the Church Fathers, then yes. The Roman Catholic Church (or, more correctly for early medieval times and before, simply Catholic) did not suddenly arise from the dew replete with all her doctrine that we know today; nor did her ecclesiastical structure and authority. If you do not consider the Church Fathers and their immediate heirs as part of the "true Church", then who was? Certainly not the heresies of the time. "Doctrinal corruption", if you will, was a process.

There was also the problem that much of the medieval church simply was not equiped to propoagate its doctrine to the people. While some of said doctrine was quite sound, local parishes often did a miserable job of spreading it. And corruption was rampant, particularly at the time of the Reformers. These things, along with the general amaglation of bad doctrine, brought about the Reformation.

7 posted on 01/01/2003 1:30:37 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: Cleburne
If you do not consider the Church Fathers and their immediate heirs as part of the "true Church", then who was?

I couldn't consider them as such. Doctrinally speaking, or in any way, I don't see Rome as ever being a part of Biblical Christianity.

8 posted on 01/01/2003 1:39:32 PM PST by Jael
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To: Cleburne
The Orthodox East was not an oppressor of any "Trail of Blood" groups. Yes, there was torture and brutality within the jurisdiction of the Roman church but the neither the Roman Catholic Church nor the Roman Pope's authority extended beyond Europe. The rest of the world was under the authority of the Bishops of Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Moscow, and Constantinople- all equal to the Pope and all independent of Roman Catholicism.
9 posted on 01/01/2003 1:53:51 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Well, Eastern Orthodoxy isn't completely untainted. Just a smidgen:)

There was a magnificent display of some 125 Russian icons and religious artifacts at our local art museum recently (In South Mississippi- it's actually quite nice, for a largely rural region. A balance of largely traditional art, a sprinkling of "modern"-gagh- and a fine collection of Native American baskets). I don't recall any icons by Rublev (or on his design rather, as most of them were from early-modern to turn of the century periods), though I did not get to view it as well as I would have liked. I came back a few days later only to learn the exhibit had just been packed... I don't agree with many of the practise surronding icons, but they are certainly beautiful works of art and devotion.

10 posted on 01/01/2003 2:09:36 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: Jael; RnMomof7
I have often been told that we Orthodox are closest to the high church Lutherans than any other Christian body. I found this interesting discussion to share.

"Martin Luther, the famous German Augustinian monk turned Reformer, disagreed on a number of points of faith and practice with the Roman Catholic Church and so began the Reformation and the Lutheran Church.

Luther was actually very well disposed toward the Eastern Orthodox Church. For example, he esteemed the way the Orthodox Church held services and read the Bible in languages understood by the people, distributed Holy Communion in both Kinds and had a married clergy.

During a debate with his Roman Catholic theological opponents, Luther chided the Roman side for casting a slur on the Eastern Orthodox Church. He reminded them that the Eastern Church was half of the Church of Christ and that, as far as he was concerned, it was the "better half" (which is where that popular term comes to us from!).

In terms of the differences between Orthodox Christianity and Lutheranism, that is sometimes difficult to determine.

For example, if we say that the Orthodox Church is different from the Lutheran Church because the former honours the Virgin Mary and the Saints, that would not be true for the entire Lutheran tradition and Church.

As you know, Martin Luther himself venerated the Virgin Mary throughout his life, as did the early Lutherans. He was often portrayed holding a Rosary by the early Lutherans and he wrote movingly about Mary and the "Hail Mary" prayer!

There are High Church Lutherans in Europe and elsewhere who likewise venerate the Virgin Mary and the Saints. There is the "Die Sammlung" movement in Germany which seeks church unity and a revival of Lutheranism's Catholic heritage, as is the case also in Sweden and Finland.

I have also corresponded with Lutheran Ministers (who prefer to be called "Priests") who share with Orthodoxy almost every single point of faith - or at least I found it difficult to determine where they weren't "Orthodox" save for the fact that they were not in formal communion with the Orthodox Church.

And there are Lutherans who, once they've studied the early Luther's writings and the vision of early Lutheranism, become Orthodox themselves e.g. Jaroslav Pelikan is a recent example of a famous Lutheran scholar who became Orthodox.

Orthodoxy differs from Protestantism in general in a number of ways. One way it differs is in its faith concerning the way in which Christ saves us.

Protestantism (and I'm not necessarily equating all of the Lutheran heritage with it - that would be unfair and untrue) believes that Christ died by way of substitution e.g. taking our place to placate God the Father for the offense given by Original Sin and our other sins.

Orthodoxy believes that God became man in Christ to heal us of the disease of sin and sinfulness that is in our nature. Christ's death on the Cross destroyed the record of our sins before God. By dying, Christ gave us life. He rose us from the death of sin by His Resurrection and He gave us the opportunity to participate, by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, in Him and through Him in the life of the Holy Trinity and the Communion of Saints. We are called to become transfigured by the Divine-Human Christ through the Holy Spirit and become Christ-like - something that Martin Luther actually affirmed himself when he said we are called to become "little Christs."

source

11 posted on 01/01/2003 2:11:55 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Jael
Then what happened to the church after, say, AD 90?
12 posted on 01/01/2003 2:12:11 PM PST by Cleburne
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To: Cleburne
Well, Eastern Orthodoxy isn't completely untainted

We do have a few blots in our history. We were not always as good to the jews in Russia during certain historical times. And certainly the Old Believers were persecuted, at least by taxes if nothing else, in parts of Russia during Peter the Great's time.

13 posted on 01/01/2003 2:13:50 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Cleburne
but they are certainly beautiful works of art and devotion

In our faith we consider them to be theology in art. As if the Bible were made into pictures, so to speak. And many of our icons are just that, biblical stories made into art. Thank you for your kind words. I do love your state of residence, having traveled there several times.

In Facing East our fellow EO Frederica M.G. writes of a Georgian preacher whom I have taken great interest in, who recently passed away I understand.
Howard Finster.
Are you familiar with him?

God is Love

If You Only Had One Sweet Son
And You Gave His Life To Save
Ten Wicked Men. And And They
Returned And Denied That You
Gave Your Only Son For Them
And Said You Child Never Exist
No One Died For Us. Please Go
Right Now And Call You Child To
You And Measure You Love For Him
And Turn And Look At The Most
Sinful Man You Know And
Think If You Would Trade Your
Presus Son For Him. God Is Love."

14 posted on 01/01/2003 2:22:00 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Howard Finster
15 posted on 01/01/2003 2:24:26 PM PST by MarMema
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To: All
More from the link above, on Howard Finster.

"Along the way Finster began to do some painting -- mostly on scrap wood and cut-out panels, depicting angels, heavenly scenes, animals, and portraits with large, luminous eyes fringed with long lashes like the rays of the sun. Then he heard a call to "build a paradise and decorate it with the Bible." (Finster says he received "messages" and "visions" from God throughout his life, starting at the age of three). He bought a plot of wasteland near his home in Summerville, Ga., and called it "Paradise Gardens." On those acres he created artworks, sculptures, paintings, and buildings, always seeking to demonstrate the glory of God.

He didn't leave it up to visitors to guess what he was doing; Paradise Gardens' most prominent feature was hundreds of signs tacked up to explain the Gospel and the lessons the artworks sought to convey. "I built this park of broken pieces to try to mend a broken world," read one sign. Due to Finster's limited education, correct spelling was not always a feature of his work, but his hard-hitting wisdom made it unnecessary. Another message at Paradise Gardens appeared on an oil-drum lid nailed to a pine tree. Painted sky blue, then inscribed in red and indigo, it read "Dying daily is a greator sacrifice than dying dead." Misspelled, yes, but no less true because of it."

I guess what I really want to say is that I think this backwoods Georgian preacher, with almost no education and clearly lacking the ability to spell, has/had it all. No church required. He knew the Truth.

Quite simply, that "God is Love" and "daily dying" is harder than dying "dead".

And I will say that he did not require the Eastern Orthodox church or any other to find this truth.

16 posted on 01/01/2003 2:30:08 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Oh yes, one more important truth from Howard Finster -

"For my kingdom is not of this world."

17 posted on 01/01/2003 2:35:57 PM PST by MarMema
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
ping
18 posted on 01/01/2003 2:41:36 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Thank you for the ping. i may have to depart for a time to go pretend that i am a social person, but here we go.

First, i have a problem with the implied premise of the questions presented to us for discussion...objection your honor, assumes as fact matters not in evidence (begging the question). Perhaps it would be better if we dealt with them one at a time or had a separate thread for each one. Opinions? i could be mistaken about this, since i've been going on litte sleep and higher brain functions are beginning (?) to suffer, not to mention my typing skills!
19 posted on 01/01/2003 3:46:10 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; ...
Done
20 posted on 01/01/2003 3:53:34 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Jael
God's truth was never lost. Men just got so sidetracked onto a "works for salvation program" after mis-understanding Christ's statement to the rich young ruler who wanted to know what good thing he must do to be saved. Christ gave him something impossible to do to show you cannot earn salvation. Yet men have been trying to earn their salvation ever since as a result ever since.
21 posted on 01/01/2003 4:05:03 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Must read the "preview" closer.
22 posted on 01/01/2003 4:10:51 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Jael
Concerning your first question:
"Did God loose His truth? Or hide it?Or not allow it to be seen or known?"

My reply to the general question of truth, would be the First Chapter of Romans, which deals with General Revelation and Natural theology. General Revelation is a reiteration of the declaration of the Psalmist,

" The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speach, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speach nor language where their voice is not heard." (Psalm 19:1-3 KJV)

So we see in terms of the General revelation of God, there has been neither loss, nor hiding, nor reluctance to make that truth known. (evidence for first proposition submitted Your Honour!)

The Romans Passage tell us that man does not accept these evidences.

"For the writh of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodlieness and unrighteousness of men, WHO HOLD OUT THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS;" Rom 1:18 KJV. Emphasis by me.

The NIV renders the word translated as hold out as "suppressed", which in 21st Century English is probably more accurate. Some translations have "reppressed". It is not a matter of God not speaking, rather of man who knows not accepting. One must be aware of truth to suppress it.
23 posted on 01/01/2003 4:12:56 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Jael; RnMomof7; the_doc
It is preposterous to claim that "God's truth" resides only in the Romanist denomination. What about 1054 A.D. when the minions of the Bishop of Rome unilaterally ex-communicated the Patriarch of Constantinople? With that heinous action, did "God's truth" vanish from the Greek/Russian orthodox Church?

By no means!

24 posted on 01/01/2003 4:13:33 PM PST by Precisian
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To: Jael; RnMomof7; the_doc; CCWoody; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Matchett-PI; Jean Chauvin; drstevej
" If one holds to the fact that Rome was not the true church, where was the Body before Rome, and during Rome, but before Luther or Calvin?"

Sounds familiar:

And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away. And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria: And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him. - I Kings 19:13-18

In other words, God is always preserving a remnant for Himself. This will also be true during the Tribulation, of which Jesus said: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? - Luke 18:8b (For those who need a little help, Jesus is saying that things will look so bad that it will appear to the unenlightened that the Church is non-existent, it will be that bad. Yet, Christ is King, and as King He is both rewarding His loyal subjects, and executing His wrath against His enemies. So, when it comes to the Tribulation, just as in the dark ages of pre-Reformation Europe, He will be destroying a proportionately larger number of His enemies compared to the number of His beloved saints.)

25 posted on 01/01/2003 4:22:03 PM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Jerry_M
Bump for that one!
26 posted on 01/01/2003 4:30:23 PM PST by the_doc
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To: Jael; RnMomof7; the_doc; CCWoody; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Matchett-PI; drstevej
Follow-up to 25.

I probably wasn't as clear in that post about one point. That point being, Christ is not concerned primarily with the salvation of souls. He is much more concerned with His own Glory, and the honor of the Name of the Father. He receives glory by saving, and He receives glory by executing wrath. He is the King, and this is His right. (In fact, anyone who dre complain about this is a rebel and a traitor, and deserves His wrath.)

(In other words, it isn't about us at all, it is all about Him! Our role is to glorify Him, whether as a member of His body, the Church, or as a testimony of the righteousness of His wrath.)

27 posted on 01/01/2003 4:31:02 PM PST by Jerry_M
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To: Jael
In Your prologue question, and the second quesion of your post, what do you (does the author?) mean by the word rediscovered? The devil is in the details.
28 posted on 01/01/2003 4:31:35 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Jerry_M
In other words, it isn't about us at all, it is all about Him!

Amen to this.

29 posted on 01/01/2003 4:34:07 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
What is the chief and greatest end of man?

To glorify God and Fully to enjoy Him Forever.

Question and answer 1 Westminster Confession of Faith.
30 posted on 01/01/2003 4:43:57 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Mea Maxi Culpa,

Westminister Catechism (Longer). told you my higher brain functions were beginning to go. :-}
31 posted on 01/01/2003 4:45:46 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Jerry_M
In other words, God is always preserving a remnant for Himself. This will also be true during the Tribulation, of which Jesus said: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? - Luke 18:8b (For those who need a little help, Jesus is saying that things will look so bad that it will appear to the unenlightened that the Church is non-existent, it will be that bad. Yet, Christ is King, and as King He is both rewarding His loyal subjects, and executing His wrath against His enemies. So, when it comes to the Tribulation, just as in the dark ages of pre-Reformation Europe, He will be destroying a proportionately larger number of His enemies compared to the number of His beloved saints.)

Amen...For His Glory that they may know He is God!

32 posted on 01/01/2003 4:56:16 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Jerry_M
That point being, Christ is not concerned primarily with the salvation of souls. He is much more concerned with His own Glory, and the honor of the Name of the Father. He receives glory by saving, and He receives glory by executing wrath

People do not like hearing that Jerry..it runs contrary to the theology of today that God made men and saved them because he was lonely or because we deserve it..

33 posted on 01/01/2003 4:58:53 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
All born damned; some redeemed.
34 posted on 01/01/2003 5:01:02 PM PST by Precisian
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To: RnMomof7; All
i have to go away. i should return about 2300EST. Hope to catch up then. Happy New year and Merry Christmas to MarMena.
35 posted on 01/01/2003 5:03:39 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Precisian
Better, All get Justice, some recieve Mercy.

Sola Deo Gloria!
36 posted on 01/01/2003 5:05:02 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Jerry_M; the_doc; CCWoody; Matchett-PI; JesseShurun; ...
Folks we have a new brother..say Hi to DCL...

Cleburne is another new brother ..look for them huh?

37 posted on 01/01/2003 5:13:08 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
What is the chief and greatest end of man?

Ok here is the EO version. "It is the classical teaching of the Orthodox Church that the very essence of Christian spiritual life, the very essence of life itself, is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God."

Gee, I hope there are some evangelicals in this discussion. :-)

38 posted on 01/01/2003 5:20:16 PM PST by MarMema
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To: RnMomof7; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; the_doc
Folks we have a new brother..say Hi to DCL...

Actually, I had just noticed CDL on another thread recently, and was going to post a response to him.

I think that CDL was lamenting the fact that he felt himself to be relatively in the minority, among Reformed brethren, in affirming Augustinian Traducianism.

I'd intended to ping "the_doc" to CDL's comments, and assure CDL that he's not exactly alone in affirming Augustinian Traducianism (unfortunately, he had to leave for a few hours. Well, maybe upon his return).

39 posted on 01/01/2003 5:23:41 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: RnMomof7; Cleburne
Cleburne is amazing. Only 17!!

Welcome to FR, Cleburne!

40 posted on 01/01/2003 5:30:13 PM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Nice to have young people post huh? We see so much of the negative..nice to know young folks with an interest in spiritual things
41 posted on 01/01/2003 5:38:11 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Happy New year and Merry Christmas to MarMena.

And much love in Christ back at you!

42 posted on 01/01/2003 5:53:47 PM PST by MarMema
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To: RnMomof7
Also, there is:

Precisian
43 posted on 01/01/2003 5:56:08 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: Jael
Wow.....you sing the Psalms? Well, you are one of the few Christians that bother to sing them at all.
44 posted on 01/01/2003 5:58:44 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: RnMomof7
Is Pay a Calvinist? He was acting like an Arminian on another thread....
45 posted on 01/01/2003 6:00:30 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
What on Earth is Augustinian Traducianism?

Thanks for the help....
46 posted on 01/01/2003 6:04:06 PM PST by rwfromkansas
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; All
By the Grace of the Almighty i have returned...needed only to put in a token appearance, and all is well.

Thank you OP. Having lurked some of these threads, i feel quite intimidated to be in the company of some of you, quite formidable. At this time, i will seek brevity in comment, because i am still getting a feel for HTML. Not brave enough to try anything yet. I took the name when i realised that deplictions of John Calvin looked a great deal to me as if he were the 16th Century version of Darth Vader. i mean, would any of YOU want to fill THAT guy's inbox with spam?? Ask Michael Servetus why that is a bad idea (you want fries with that?). Truth is a hugh issue to me. The invisible Church in all of it's expressions is now going through a crisis of truth and authority, even the Catholics. To reverse this trend i believe that is first neccessary to inform the world that Love is not necessarily the "warm fuzzies" that is portrayed to us. Some times love is a smack across the a$$, and one of those can be more beneficial than 1000 warm fuzzies, especially to a child. In the case of the church, i think we may need a 2x4 to th back of the head to get their attention.
47 posted on 01/01/2003 6:05:19 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: MarMema
Still searching the scriptures to respond to your #38, trying to type and turn pages, AND make my brain work at the same time. Has the thread we "met" on gone anywhere, i haven't had time to look at it since i got back? :-)
48 posted on 01/01/2003 6:16:18 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord
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To: rwfromkansas
Sure I sing them. Someone else taught me the tune. :-)
49 posted on 01/01/2003 6:17:13 PM PST by Jael
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To: rwfromkansas; Precisian
Ohhh I didn't know how old precision was..I thought YOU had the youth market cornered :>)

Pay is an Arminian ..but we is buddies

50 posted on 01/01/2003 6:20:40 PM PST by RnMomof7
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