The Institutes Book 1, Chapter 10

The Institutes of the Christian Religion ^ | 1500's | John Calvin

[lockeliberty]

My views on this subject are far too controversial, though not at all anti-Semitic, and i wish to waste no time in attempting to defend a matter that is not an essential to me, and has little immediate importance to me.

I wonder if you would agree with me that ones views are immediately eschatological and thus effects ones hermeneutics?

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

I wonder if you would agree with me that ones views are immediately eschatological and thus effects ones hermeneutics?

Generally speaking, yes, i would agree, and suspect that we both could come up with speciic examples here at FR.

My own particular controversy is primarily an in-house matter among members of the Reformed Faith, and not likely to disturb doctrinal issues within that Faith. i simply do not wish to debate this controversy, when it would distract from discussion of the Institutes.

[RnMomof7]

I wonder if we are talking past each other??? The Jews still exist as a distinct people..(my meaning of a political group) And some of that group also belong to Israel..

[lockeliberty]

Understood.

Let me bring some opinions about the subject of these threads. I question the approach to understanding Calvin's theology in this way. Calvin's theology is a systematic approach to theology and to understand him is to understand all that he says as a whole. What is being done here is deconstructing each of Calvin's premises on their own merit apart from the system as a whole.

This is a problem, as I see it, with American evangelicals. We tend to chop up the Bible into pieces without trying to understand the overall picture. I understand it would probably be impractical to ask everyone to read the entire Institutes and then go back and anaylize the premises but that would be the most appropriate approach, IMHO.

[lockeliberty]

I wonder if we are talking past each other??

Probably so. Terms such as "political" connote large meanings.

[ksen]

I do not presume that the modern State of Socialist Israel, mired in Marxist Economics and the Denial of the Messiah, represents the fulfillment of God's Promises to the Jewish People.

There are no Dispensationalists who say that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. There are a bunch who say that this is the beginning of the fulfillment, but not the fulfillment itself.

[ksen]

I believe that Contracts are Binding....

What about this Contract?

Gen 17:
[8] And I[God] will give unto thee[Abraham], and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

[ksen]

I question the approach to understanding Calvin's theology in this way. Calvin's theology is a systematic approach to theology and to understand him is to understand all that he says as a whole. What is being done here is deconstructing each of Calvin's premises on their own merit apart from the system as a whole.

What other approach would you suggest?

I've never read the entire Institutes so I need to read them. I don't know any other way to read something than chapter by chapter. So I might as well read them with you folk, that way those who know them can help with the understanding of them.

[drstevej]

***There are no Dispensationalists who say that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of God's promises to the Jewish people. There are a bunch who say that this is the beginning of the fulfillment, but not the fulfillment itself. ***

^{Ezekiel 37:7} So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. ⁸ I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’" ¹⁰ So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ ¹² Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. ¹³ Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. ¹⁴ I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’"

 

BLUE = Present - Israel is assembled back in the land in spiritual death and dryness. There is a gathered and re-assembled body with flesh but no life.

RED = Future - The tribulation (Day of Jacob's trouble) brings the nation to repentance and readiness to receive her Messiah.

[ksen]

Thanks drstevej.

[ksen]

Bump to drsteve's #49.

[drstevej]

BTW, I don't debate eschatology on FR. My post was to show my understanding of the present situation where Israel is back in the land in unbelief. I'll let others do the debate thing on this topic.
-drstevej

[lockeliberty]

What other approach would you suggest?

Read the whole Institutes and then come back and go through each premise. Have you ever been a part of a reading club? You don't read one chapter and then get together and discuss the first chapter. If I'm not mistaken Calvin restructured his ordering of his premises on at least one occasion. The framework of his premises seem to be an important component of his theology. In this way you could analyze his framework and better understand what it is that he is trying to convey.

[ksen]

I understand. I am not trying to light the eschatological fire again, trust me.

I was just trying to show OP that he was grossly overstating what it was that Dispensationalists believe about modern day Israel.

[RnMomof7]

What about this Contract?
Gen 17: [8] And I[God] will give unto thee[Abraham], and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

and to thy seed

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

We need great caution in telling God what HE meant :>)

[ksen]

We need great caution in telling God what HE meant :>)

Yes, we do. ;^)