Catechism of the Catholic Church Requires Civil Penalties for Abortion

American Life League ^ | Feb 21, 2003 | Judy Brown

[patent]

The only response you make to my post is to nitpick the spelling?

Untrue.

Well, actually it was true, as you didn’t say any of the stuff you say now, including:

My response was that the Scribes knew that "only God could forgive sins", but could not understand that Jesus was God.

Again, you take your theology from Scribes. Good for you.

The normal Catholic response is that "only God can forgive sins, but God does it through a priest."

That is why I posted the incident from Acts where Peter refered Simon the Sorcerer directly to God for forgiveness. Simon them asked Peter to pray for him. Christians, like Peter, pray for each other all the time. There is not any indication that Peter gave Simon absolution, or assigned him the Rosary, or any number of Our Fathers to say.

Of course not. Simon wasn’t repentant, and he was trying to buy forgiveness with his money. You would require, perhaps, that Peter take money for the Sacrament in order to prove it is a Sacrament? If it is a Sacrament one would expect him to refuse it to one who is trying to buy it, as that clearly demonstrates a lack of mental and faithful preparation to recieve it. As to it being all believers:

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Do you really believe that every believer was inside those doors, or perhaps that it was only the 12, as referenced in verse 24? Regardless, those in the room were ordained when Christ breathed on them, an ordination the Church passes down from generation to generation in Holy Orders. See also, Mt. 28:16-20

16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

patent  +AMDG

[Maximilian]

However, I do note that you repeatedly characterize Ms. Brown as being “disturbed by the cowardice of the North Dakota bishops.” ... can you show me where she says something of this sort, or are you just putting words in her mouth?

Here is the "Communique" newsletter from American Life League that was emailed TODAY, Feb 21, 2003:

Communique -- a pro-life news update
From: Judie Brown
February 21, 2003
Vol. 13, No. 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

in this issue:

hot button issues: NORTH DAKOTA

abortion: IS IT MURDER? / PENAL SANCTIONS

The excerpts from the Catechism may have been on the website previously, but the link to the page and the connection between the Catechism and the situation in North Dakota was sent to subscribers TODAY, Feb 21st.

In addition to her testimony, and in addition to the information in her newsletter, there is also the information from her response to a question on EWTN, which I have already previously posted:

"American Life League provided testimony in favor of the bill and I issued a statement which I post here for your edification because, as you have said, in this case, the Bishop is wrong to have opposed the bill, and none of us understand why he did."

Yes, she disagrees with the Bishops on this, but I hardly think she agrees with you,

It's not that she agrees with me, but that I agree with her, since she is the pre-eminent pro-life leader who has taken a 100% pro-life stance in contrast to so many other so-called pro-lifers who compromise at the drop of a hat, and that includes Catholic bishops. I agree with her brilliant strategy to begin the Crusade for the defense of our Catholic Church, an attempt to hold bishops' feet to the fire when they back down on pro-life principles. Check out this amazing ad they ran in the Washington Times when Al Sharpton was allowed to preach at a church in Chicago:

Al Sharpton is NOT a Catholic Priest

This important alert to Roman Catholic clergy presented by:
Crusade for the Defense of Our Catholic Church
A PROJECT OF AMERICAN LIFE LEAGUE
A COPY OF THIS AD HAS BEEN SENT TO ALL CARDINALS AND BISHOPS IN THE UNITED STATES.

Judy Brown and the American Life League are showing the way. Catholics should not continue to tolerate cowardice from their bishops.

[Onelifetogive]

Gotta go. I enjoyed this discussion.

I'll pray that God will direct us both in expanding and correcting our understanding of His plan.

Peace be with you!

[sinkspur]

Judy Brown and the American Life League are showing the way.

Judie Brown is an "all-or-nothing" pro-lifer. She criticized George W. Bush for not being pro-life enough in 2000 because he allows for the rape exception.

Yet, Bush re-instituted the Mexico policy, affirmed the fetus as a person for Health and Human Services purposes, and will sign a partial-birth abortion ban.

Judie may be a good force within the Church, but she is worthless politically. I haven't heard one word of encouragement from her about the steps Bush has taken away from Roe v. Wade, including the judges he's nominated.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

I would agree. That one baffles both me and St. Mark.

Don't include St. Mark in your ignorance. He wasn't a simple linguistic literalist like yourself and St. John was present when Christ said:

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When He had said this, He breathed on them; and He said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John 20:21-23

[Land of the Irish]

Thanks for the ping. Judie Brown acts in a more Catholic way; and in doing so, saves more unborn children, than these cowardly bishops.

[Maximilian]

Yes, she disagrees with the Bishops on this...

The point is not that Judie Brown disagrees with the bishops of North Dakota, the point is that the CATECHISM disagrees with them. And it proves that their self-serving excuses for not doing everything in their power to support this law were not supported by any Catholic teaching as they claimed.

your previous claim on this issue that “not even Catholic bishops truly support the right to life"...

That claim was in reference to these very bishops on this very issue. And it is self-evident. A bill is introduced to outlaw abortion. They come out and OPPOSE it. Their excuses are contrary to Catholic teaching in the Catechism. QED.

[Maximilian]

Judie Brown is an "all-or-nothing" pro-lifer.

Yes, it's true. She won't accept any compromises with the principle that "innocent life may never be deliberately taken." Like her, I was one of the "pragmatists" for many years. Finally I opened my eyes and asked myself, "What have 30 years of pragmatism and compromise accomplished for the pro-life movement? Nothing!"

Pragmatism is not pragmatic. It doesn't work. One can never get their position advanced without the fervor of the true believer. This goes for left-wing causes as well as for right. When they see that we are wiling to compromise on principles that we claim are so fundamental and bedrock, how can anyone believe us? Is the NAACP willing to allow just a little bit of slavery?

I've swung over to the Judie Brown position that we will never achieve any success whatsoever until we demonstrate the courage of our convictions by not agreeing to be complicit in the deliberate deaths of any innocent life.

[Dr. Scarpetta]

BUMP

[attagirl]

Here, here! Well said. The Russian Orthodox Church decided to be pragmatic too (maybe if it played ball with the commies, it could have some influence). That's why it soon became synonymous with "KGB."

[Askel5]

Judie Brown is incredible. She and Phyllis Schlafley are some of my greatest living heroines.

[Land of the Irish]

Judie Brown is incredible. She and Phyllis Schlafley are some of my greatest living heroines.

Mega Dittos!

[Dajjal]

Bumpus ad summum

[Arthur McGowan]

But that wasn't Saint Mark speaking! That was the enemies of Jesus speaking! Not only that, but they spoke those words long before Jesus GAVE his apostles the power to forgive sins--which Jesus did after His Resurrection.

So it is a grave distortion of the Scripture to say that "Saint Mark" said that. Saint Mark REPORTED that the enemies of Jesus said it.

[attagirl]

Me: So, are you saying that all disciples--meaning you and me--get to retain sin? You aren't making any sense.

You: I did't say it. Christ said it. We have to study under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand it.

Honestly, why do you take words only to distort them? Forget how you were taught in your Protestant interpretations.

Matt 16: (Peter) You are the Messiah, Son of living God

(Jesus answered) ...You are Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church.... Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Please meditate on the above and you will see that Christ never meant for His Church to be a democracy. Furthermore, He wanted a hierarchy. (Peter is prime, then the apostles, etc.Even within those ranks there were elect--Peter, James and John having been separated out at least on 2 occasions that I can think of offhand.)

There are so many more quotations, but this one is very key.

I like your screen name. Follow Jesus as He wants us to follow Him--by joining the Church He established on earth--and your giving/living will be as He wills.

[Lloyd Grey]

Peter didn't know about that sacrement either: In Acts 8, he was presented with a perfect opportunity to forgive a guy's sin and assign the guy a few Rosaries and Our Fathers. He DIDN'T do anything like that.

You expose your own ignorance. Our Lady didn't give us the Rosary until much later. How could St. Peter possibly assign it as a Pennace?

Go home and do your homework.