Posted on 03/24/2003 10:31:54 PM PST by onedoug
To: onedoug The Gospels are profound, but a little more problematic for me in terms of Jesus as Messiah.
How so? That would be a more interesting discussion...
21 posted on 03/24/2003 3:38 PM PST by Alex Murphy [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
And so, since you evinced an interest in response, and I’d promised to keep it short, I thought to make this into its own thread in the hope we all might learn some more, as FreeRepublic has so often helped me to learn since I signed up in 2000.
I should say first that I believe that Jesus is the greatest representation in human history thus far of the “messianic expectation” of the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud, Midrashim and successive Jewish literature.
I once told my wife that I believe Jesus, during his time on The Cross, had uttered the name of everyone who had, or would ever live. And I really do believe that in the same Talmudic sense that God had uttered the name of every Jew who would ever live when he gave The Law to Moses on Mount Sinai.
Though I also believe it is allegory. Though divinely inspired, I believe that biblical truth is the struggle of humanity that hewed Ethical Monotheism from the ancient world, and gradually channeled utterly wild male sexuality into marriage, thus providing the anchor for all of Western, and particularly Judeo-Christian civilization to come.
In the link on ethical monotheism above, Dennis Prager speaks of God as being outside nature.
“If God were within nature,” he writes, “He would be limited, and God, who is not physical, has no limits.”
In Exodus 33: 18-20 Moses said to God, “Oh let me behold Your Presence!” but was told in rebuke that, “…you cannot see my face, for man may not see Me and live.”
Maimonides expanded on this in the European middle-ages with the third of his “Thirteen Principles of the Jewish Faith” being the “Incorporeality of God” the opposite of which would effectively undermine the “oneness” and the infinitude of God if He might become corporeal (or, human) and hence again, “within nature”.
Of course the argument that God can do what God wants is compelling but for the continuing sense of “frustration” that God finds in his likeness from The Fall, through The Flood, then Babel, through the prophecies, arguably more in hope of a “new heaven and new earth” following the fall of The Temple than the coming of The Lamb, who would lie down with the lion, clearly yet unrealized, necessitating yet a “Second Coming”, accompanied by the apocalypse…of Daniel or Revelation?
Hmm. So much it seems at least for predestination. But that’s likely another thread.
One of my greatest challenges as regards Christ came in tackling The Jesus Puzzle where its author argued mightily and well that no such figure had ever really existed in history. I countered though, that “something” it seemed had motivated this “revolution” within Judaism as especially the idea of women, heretofore so marginalized in the Gospels – except by Jesus himself – had been consistently identified as the first witnesses to The Resurrection.
Yet the “arguments” that subsequently ensued through The Acts and Paul’s Letters to the various fledgling “Christian” communities throughout the Mediterranean rim led me back to wonder whether the central element of the Gospels hadn’t concerned so much “Temple reform” in Jerusalem as man’s salvation which I’ve rather come to believe is based more solidly on the idea of One God, one morality for all humanity, the notion that God’s principle demand of man is that we treat each decently, and that deed supersedes creed.
But, I’d promised to keep this short. And writing from scratch like this makes one sort of delirious, but I think I’ve covered my primary points. Thus if anyone has anything to add, correct or condemn, I’m all ears…uh, eyes.
Thanks.
I'll also try to furnish the links, which somehow didn't transfer properly into the posting.
Thanks, and Best To You....
Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend
Sorry, but putting this together really made me tired. 11pm here in LaLa Land. Gotta get "to sleep...perchance to dream. Ah, there's the rub."
"Give me your favor. My dull brain was wracked by things forgotten."
Proverbs 25:2
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
I should say first that I believe that Jesus is the greatest representation in human history thus far of the “messianic expectation” of the Hebrew Bible, the Talmud, Midrashim and successive Jewish literature.
For someone who has "problems" with it, I find this a refreshingly frank and honest statement. Mind if I borrow it for future use?
Though divinely inspired, I believe that biblical truth is the struggle of humanity that hewed Ethical Monotheism from the ancient world, and gradually channeled utterly wild male sexuality into marriage, thus providing the anchor for all of Western, and particularly Judeo-Christian civilization to come.
Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but I'm assuming your position begins with the idea that judaic monotheism, etc. evolved from earlier, non-judaic and non-monotheistic civilizations? I'm familiar with one argument that proposes Monotheism originated with Akhenaton and was only later adopted by Israel (following their captivity under Egypt), but I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're referring to.
Just want to be sure I understand where you're beginning from.
The resolution of the apparent contradiction is easy to see, in this case.
Both quotations are from chapter 33 of Exodus.
The first testifies to Moses' conversing with God, in the form of a cloudy pillar.Exodus 33:9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.The passage describes Moses' conversation with God as being face-to-face, but the passage is also clear that God was manifesting Himself as the cloudy pillar which led Israel across the wilderness during the day.
10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
So, one would conclude that, when the text speaks of Moses speaking with God face-to-face, as one would speak to a friend ... that it is not saying that Moses actually saw God's face. It is merely speaking to the back and forth nature of the conversation.
Note further that it is after this conversation takes place that Moses asks God to allow him to see His glory. Continuing with verse 12 of the chapter ...Exodus 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15 And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
I don't think that it took so many centuries to fully codify ethical monotheism necessarily undermines the long derived truth of that concept, but rather hold that the prevalence of the Jews themselves as the most influential minority across history to the present day - in spite of their tribulations as the "Chosen People" is, in fact, one of the primary arguments for the existence of God.
In short, as I did in fact promise...I believe it.
I tried to qualify (or, fudge?) that in my ninth pargraph, above.
I might say that "characteristics" of the human mind can be perceived through its actions, which are in, and contained by nature. And if the mind is a product of electro-chemistry in the brain - even more fundamentally the outcome of quantum mechanical processes - then how might that be seen as not held to natural laws?
(I'm starting to get a headache, now.)
That men allow and ecourage this to be takes manhood and honor to deeper depths.
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