[ksen]

How does this square with:

Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis•, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess• your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become asubjected• to the spirit of the devil, and he doth bseal• you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

[ksen]

If any non-Mormons dare to discuss this I just ask that you keep your comments civil and relevant.

Oh, and if I disappear hopefully it won't be for too long. ;^)

[ksen]

I'm not sure who the other LDS'ers are, but can we see about having a cordial discussion about this seeming discrepancy without anyone getting a time out?

Ping 'em if you got 'em.

If I see my side getting out of hand then I'LL ask to have the thread pulled. I expect you to police your own as well.

Thank you.

[SoothingDave]

OK, Kevin. What do you think Paul was referring to? It would be my understanding that baptising for the dead was an illicit practice. Or was decided to be illict early in the post-Biblical history of the Church.

SD

[Illbay]

The individual who never had the opportunity to receive baptism will have that choice.

The wicked aren't going to accept baptism.

[editor-surveyor]

Necromancy.

[Grig]

"How does this square with: Alma 34:34 "

Alma 34:34-35 squares perfectly with LDS doctrine on baptism for the dead. Only by misundersanding either one of them can it appear otherwise.

The people Alma was talking to were members of the church who had adopted several false teaching and gone astray. They had already been baptized, so there would be no proxy baptisms done for them after their death.

Proxy baptisms are only done for those who die without baptism. They are only effective for those spirits who accept Christ when given the chance.

[Quix]

I think Paul's use of THEY is significant.

He, evidently, was not at all part of the group that did so.

He was, it seems to me, poking fun at the group and making a larger point with them as an illustration.

End of story, it seems clear to me.

In any case, I may do what I can to allow God to apply the Scripture about:

John 20
22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

I don't know what that Scripture means. I don't believe God will remove people's freewill. But I do believe that AT LEAST IN MANY CASES--CERTAINLY THOSE WHERE HIS SPIRIT LEADS US TO FORGIVE AND PRAY ACCORDINGLY, that somehow, it gives God an extra measure of 'legal' freedom to bring that person to yet another opportunity to accept Christ--PERHAPS even on their death bed/at the moment of death.

It's CERTAINLY NOT something I'd like to try and build a doctrine on. I just pray that way as led regarding those crosses my path with--AND TRUST THE RESULTS TO HIS WISDOM AND LOVE.

[snerkel]

1. Baptism of the dead was heavily practiced north of Corinth in Eleusis. It was a Pagan religion which used baptism as a guarantee of a good afterlife. (Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79)

2. A main point, often overlooked in order to use this verse to support baptism of the dead, is the tense of the pronouns in the verse. He did not say WE (first person plural), he said THEY (third person plural), thus, he was speaking of the Pagans in the region, not the Christian church.

3. Baptism of the dead contradicts the Scripture in Hebrews 9:27-28 "And just as it is appointed for [all] men once to die, and after that the [certain] judgment, even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are [eagerly, constantly, and patiently] waiting for and expecting Him."

[LaineyDee]

I used to question this concept... but after reading the parable about the rich man and Lazarus.....it settled it for me.

Luke 16

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'

Baptism for the dead would apparently be useless, according to this scripture. I need to ask a Messianic Jewish friend of mine who knows the traditions of the early church better than I. BTW, thanks for the ping.