My friend is seriously considering suicide. Is it ALWAYS wrong?

may 31, 2003 | tame

[Cordova Belle]

Just read Cherry's post directly above mine.

Wish I had been more concise.

In answer to your question, "Is it always wrong?" then philosophically, "Yes!" in my opinion--for the reasons stated. It would be like asking, "Is adultery always wrong?" To take one's own life is a direct violation of the command of Scripture and His clearly revealed will.

Bless, you tame. Yes, it was a little intense!

[restornu]

Are You Ward Smythe?

[Wrigley]

Reading your post reminded me of a situation I had with a good friend of mine from HS.

A couple years after graduation he kept going on for a couple weeks how he was going to kill himself because he didn't have a girlfriend, he had problems with his dad and basically life just plain sucked.

I got sick of his whining and his feeling sorry for himself attitude that I told him to either f'ing do, or grow up. He looked at me with shock and never said a word about it again.

He's still a good friend and I'll be his best man come November when he gets married.

[tame]

Bless, you Cordova Belle! BTW, do you ever think you'll be moving back to California/work in Southern Cal with Rich, and Co?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Your advice here is for "friend" to hang on, not take his life, because it heaps despite on the sacrifice of Christ. Good theology.

Thanks, brother.

I sometimes wish, when I look back on my own life, that I had been willing to confront potential Suicides (of my own acquaintance) before they took their own lives.

Would it have "done any good"? I don't honestly know. I do know that God works All Things according to the pleasure of His Own good will, and nothing in the universe happens without His command, or His sufferance.

On the other hand, I have come to believe that in some cases Suicide (being a Work of Pride and Vanity) merits more honest confrontation than any sort of mealy-mouthed supplication.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Your bedside manner, on the other hand, will work with some but not others. All you can go with is your gut feel. One of your objectives, I would think, is to prevent the suicide from taking place.

My "bedside manner" will (I hope you are correct) work with some. I suppose it will not "work" with others.

I only offer my own Thoughts. If there is a more Prideful and Vainglorious Sin than the Act of Suicide, I am hard-pressed to imagine it.

I think that potential "Christian" Suicides need to realize the magnitude of the Sin that they are contemplating... the magnitude of the Sin that they are (as Thinkin' Gal pointed out) attempting to USE the Bible to Justify.

Maybe my "bedside manner" leaves much to be desired, but I am nonetheless prepared to point out: premeditated Suicide is ALWAYS Sin.

I'm not passing a Salvific "heaven or hell" judgment. I am passing a Temporal MORAL judgment. One by which I stand.

Now....your language. When do you think crudity violates the biblical prohibition against "crude speech?"

I don't exactly know. I'm not specifically aware of any Biblical prohibition against "crude speech". Certainly I know Paul's admonition to Timothy:

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. (II Tim. 2:16)

And so you are probably correct to admonish me if I start to "cuss like a sailor". You're exactly right -- sometimes "crude language" is NOT necessary to make a point.

On the other hand, sometimes "crude language" IS necessary to make a point. Consider the Prophet Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 23
19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
20 For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.

In plain Modern English, Ezekiel is comparing Apostate Israel to a Bestial Whore who lusted after Sin as though she desired to fornicate with the Sexual Genitals of Donkeys, and satisfy herself with the Seminal Ejaculation of Horses.

That's pretty freakin' crude language.

It was, however, absolutely appropriate for a Prophet to speak.

In other words, the Bible certainly does NOT dis-allow "crude language". The Bible can be incredibly "crude" when it has a point to make.

The Bible does not dis-allow "crude language". In certain cases, the Bible employs incredibly "crude language". Rather, the question is, whether or not "crude language" is appropriate to the Point which is being made.

In regard to THAT critique, I welcome your admonition. I am no "Prophet", and I can occasionally go "over the top".

Thanks for your advice and fellowship.

Best, OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Reading your post reminded me of a situation I had with a good friend of mine from HS. A couple years after graduation he kept going on for a couple weeks how he was going to kill himself because he didn't have a girlfriend, he had problems with his dad and basically life just plain sucked. I got sick of his whining and his feeling sorry for himself attitude that I told him to either f'ing do, or grow up. He looked at me with shock and never said a word about it again. He's still a good friend and I'll be his best man come November when he gets married.

You woke up before I did. I used to think that mealy-mouthed supplication would work. All too often, it just plain ain't gonna.

Suicide may be an act of "despair" for the Atheist... but for the professing Christian, it can be nothing but an Act of Pride and Vainglory.

You realized this (consciously or not), and confronted your friend.

I suspect that God blesses Honesty. You were Honest with your friend.
And, as it happens, he bucked-up and listened.

Blessings on His Marriage (and upon his Grooms-men!)**

best, OP

---

** -- incidentally, your friend has my good-faith envy... it is Good for a Christian Man to marry; As for myself, I am always a Grooms-Man, never a Groom.... ah, well. All in God's good time.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I don't think tame wanted any of you to solve his problem with his friends....what I think he is asking is philisophical...he's looking for philisophical/theological answers, that's it.

Alright, fine,cherry_bomb -- let's do ALL the philisophical/theological questions in one fell swoop:

Is SELF-MURDER always wrong?

Well, gee, duh, let's think about this one real hard:

• Is the Human SELF... an Imago Dei PERSON? Check your Genesis chapter 1 verses 26-27; the answer is YES.
• Is the MURDER of an Imago Dei Person always wrong? check your Genesis chapter 9 verse 6; the answer is YES.

ERGO, QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM, Self-Murder is always, always, always wrong. This ain't that INTELLECTUALLY DIFFICULT, folks.

"Considering suicide. Is it ALWAYS wrong?" ~~ You don't even have to get farther than the first nine chapters of Genesis... 'Nuff Said.

Everything else, is Rationalization. The Question... is Answered.

Truth... and a two-by-four.

Best, OP

[tame]

Well, gee, duh, let's think about this one real hard:

Is an Orhtodox Presbyterian using the word "f*cking" in a public religous always wrong?

BTW, I believe murder is always wrong.

[tame]

Well, gee, duh, let's think about this one real hard:

Is an Orhtodox Presbyterian using the word "f*cking" in a public religous always wrong?

BTW, I believe murder is always wrong.

[tame]

Well, gee, duh, let's think about this one real hard:

Is an Orhtodox Presbyterian using the word "f*cking" in a public religous forum always wrong?

BTW, I believe murder is always wrong.

[tame]

Well, gee, duh, let's think about this one real hard:

Is an Orhtodox Presbyterian using the word "f*cking" in a public religous forum always wrong?

BTW, I believe murder is always wrong.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I do have to say that the last thing I would expect from a Christian (especially if he's had any experience in pastoral care) is "join the F*cking crowd, Kemosabe" ~~ However, in this instance OP is absolutely correct in condemning Joey's desire. You are avoiding the forest and seeing only the trees. That OP uses provacative language is only to grab your attention, and drive his point home. Not to offend necessarily, but inform.

If y'all really wanted to tear my emotional motivations apart...

....when I read about your friend "Joey", Tame, I was thinking of my old friend "Sid" McCool. His real name was Michael McCool (yes, "McCool" of all things; I looked it up in the phone book), I think he went by "Sid" as a tip-o-the-hat to "Sid Vicious" of the Sex Pistols.

Anyway, he was one of my dearest friends in high school. He was never a Christian, but he was willing to listen, at least -- I used to love talking theology with him, before he got into Kundalini Tantra and lost his mind.

He did lose his mind, of course. After firing off a twelve-gauge in all directions ("Kundalini Tantra -- you too can permanently ruin your sanity in two weeks flat!!), he got stuck in a mental hospital, gave the Shrinks all the answers they wanted to hear, and proceeded to hang himself on an overhead door-post two weeks after he got out.

Thanks for the memories, Tame.

Anyway, if you really want to get on my case because I advise your friend to "join the F*cking crowd, Kemosabe", I am gonna tell you this... I wish I had told Sid McCool the same damn thing.

I wish I had told him that this world is SH*T (is that "provocative" enough for you?), ever since Adam F*CKED the Race of Man with His Sin (more "naughty words"... is that "provocative" enough for you?), and that HELL ain't for "Bad People", it's our universal destination, DAMNED without Jesus Christ... (more "naughty words"... can your virgin ears handle it?)

But I didn't tell him any of those things. I politely discussed theology... and Sid hung himself on a rope.

So you get on my case all you want for my "language" and my "pastoral care".

All I know is, I didn't use the "provocative" language that Sid might (God knows) have listened to. And now I have four very good friends from high school, instead of five.

Preach all you want about my "pastoral manner" and my "language". The way I see it, I owe "St. Chuck" a round of beer and a theological discussion of Dante Alighieri's "Wood of the Suicides" as it relates to Augustine.... and I don't owe you horsepuckey (no offense).

I was trying to offer my thoughts. Shake your sandals off if you care to.

Less-than-perfect Regards, OP

[HatSteel]

The following is the scripture I had in mind. However, you make an appropriate point. The prophets used graphic simile and metaphor to describe sin. John continues with that tradition in the Revelation when he says that they "drink the wine of the wrath of her fornication." (I don't think I want a cup of that stuff.)

The balance point is probably something like: pure honesty of the simile or metaphor. In other words, if it truly, spiritually applies, then it is time to use it. If the reason for using it is the shock value or the cuteness/coolness of the use of language, then the point is to reflect back on the speaker's strength, correctness, or ego. It is to exalt the speaker. God's words would truly describe the situation and exalt God. The scripture below says that it will grace and edify the listeners also.

There's some leeway in there, so I don't think it is pharasaical.

Here's the scripture I had in mind:

Ephesians 4:29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, (9) just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. Ephesians 5 1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a 3 immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

[cherry_bomb88]

OP,

Ah, yes, but we must look to the New Testament for the answers, my FRiend.

The Bible cannot be "piece milled" together.

There are those theologeans that believe that the New Testament supercedes the old testament based on Jesus statement when asked what the most important commandement was. He came to take away all of our sins.

Do I think suicide is "right"? Not in the context of right/wrong. Do I think it is a "deadly" sin? No, there were only 7 of those according to the Bible, and of course our society is fraught with those, you probably have committed one yourself. Scary, eh?

I would NEVER counsel someone towards suicide or allow them to be a coward. The hurt, grief, anger and devistation it leaves behind is unimaginable unless you've been there.

HOWEVER, I would also NEVER condem someone to "hell" because they committed suicide.

I do believe, however, that our actions here on earth dictate the rewards we receive in heaven. So, that being said, I think that someone who committs suicide deeply decreases the glory & rewards they will receive in heaven.

Not to mention the fact that I think suicide is for cowards. The difficult part is living, and the near-impossible part is walking in the path of righteousness. The path is narrow and fraught with temptations and danger.

[Wrigley]

I understand your plight, as I am there too.

[tame]

"join the F*cking crowd, Kemosabe...I wish I had told Sid McCool the same damn thing...this world is SH*T...Adam F*CKED the Race of Man...I owe "St. Chuck" a round of beer...I don't owe you horsepuckey

Speaks volumes. 'Nuff said.

[RnMomof7]

Is an Orhtodox Presbyterian using the word "f*cking" in a public religous always wrong?

IMHO NO

It is a cultural word. It is not taking the Lords name in vain, it is not a forbidden oath.

In England the word Bloody is considered a curse. most of us would not be offended at that.

I will say we are told to guard ourself so we are not an occassion of sin for the weaker brothers...but to those secure and mature this is not a big deal, but for there sake we need to use caution.

[restornu]

Is not a clearer picture is coming into view of who are the wolves and the lambs!

The last I heard the lambs belongs to his flock the ones the Lord watches over!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

"join the F*cking crowd, Kemosabe...I wish I had told Sid McCool the same damn thing...this world is SH*T...Adam F*CKED the Race of Man...I owe "St. Chuck" a round of beer...I don't owe you horsepuckey Speaks volumes. 'Nuff said. 176 posted on 06/05/2003 9:05 AM PDT by tame (If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!)

Oh, give it a rest, Mr. "If I must be the victim of a criminal, please let it be Catwoman! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr". What exactly did you have in mind, in your fantasy "victimization" by Catwoman?

Uh huh.

Tell you what -- I'll use the language I think appropriate to the situation, and you just do your best to avoid sharing your personal Fornication Fantasies with the entire forum.

Fair 'Nuff?

Bloody pharisee.....

[tame]

F*cking crowd... world is SH*T...Adam F*CKED...

To top it off OP's disappointed that I'm straight.