My friend is seriously considering suicide. Is it ALWAYS wrong?

may 31, 2003 | tame

[tame]

I have a friend who is very seriously considering suicide. This friend is not interested in pity, but rather truly believes that a greater good could be served by his "withdrawel" from this life. He is almost "clinical" in his consideration of the decision.

While he believes suicide is morally wrong in many circumstances, he believes that it is the optimal moral choice in rare circumstances such as his. He is a Christian and he believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out".

His principle for this greater good of suicide is drawn from 1 Corinthians chapter 5 where Paul indicated it was better for a certain man to be handed over to Satan that his flesh may be destroyed but his soul saved in the day of judgement.

Now, I realize the immediate outcry most of you will voice against suicide, but on further contemplation is suicide always wrong without exception? What say you?

[fortheDeclaration]

How are doing!

like Calvinist_Dark_Lord's "Calvinist mantra" in post #34... "Love God and do what you will."

I think that is something that the old time Calvinists, Methodists and Baptists could all agree on! (Phil.2:13) :>)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Something we all agree on. That's worth noting. 8~)

An early morning good-night to you this first day of June.

[fortheDeclaration]

His principle for this greater good of suicide is drawn from 1 Corinthians chapter 5 where Paul indicated it was better for a certain man to be handed over to Satan that his flesh may be destroyed but his soul saved in the day of judgement.

That man repented and did not commit sucide.

In fact, Paul then tells the church to forgive him and bring him back less he be swallowed up in sorrow (2Cor.2:6-7)

Now, I realize the immediate outcry most of you will voice against suicide, but on further contemplation is suicide always wrong without exception? What say you?

The only case where I can think of where a suicide was 'justified' was in the case of Samson.

That suicide was really a type of dying in battle and taking the enemy with you, a very rare case.

If your friends problem are that of the 1Cor. 5 issue, then suicide is not the answer, getting right with God is (1Jn.1:9, 1Cor.11:31)

[fortheDeclaration]

Something we all agree on. That's worth noting. 8~) An early morning good-night to you this first day of June.

Amen!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I have a friend who is very seriously considering suicide. This friend is not interested in pity, but rather truly believes that a greater good could be served by his "withdrawal" from this life. He is almost "clinical" in his consideration of the decision.

While he believes suicide is morally wrong in many circumstances, he believes that it is the optimal moral choice in rare circumstances such as his. He is a Christian and he believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out".

Here's my take on it... join the f*cking crowd, kemosabe.

Forget about the Shame you have brought to your "family" and your "Church"... If any of us truly understood the horrific Shame we have brought against God, the Violation of His Image we have wrought by our every Sin (not just the "Big Sins"), we'd probably wanna put a bullet in our brain.

Which is exactly why Christ died. If you wanna "die on your own behalf", or "save Face for the Kingdom", you're almost pissing ingratitude upon His sacrifice "who became Sin for you" (In fact, you are).

• What about those who have the Sin of Homosexuality in their past? You're a worse Sinner than they? I hardly think so.
• What about those of us who have the Sins of Drug Use and Adultery in our past? You're a worse Sinner than us? I hardly think so.

Christ became Sin for Us. Suicide ain't "noble", it doesn't "save Face"... it's a form of INGRATITUDE against the Sacrifice of Christ, "who became Sin for us".

It ain't possible to "pay Jesus back" for the Perfect Atonement which He has worked on your behalf... but you can spend a Life-time in servitude to Him, at the very least.

If you choose to cut that Life-time short -- if you choose, in short, to tell Jesus to go piss up a rope -- I don't know whether or not that endangers your Eternal Salvation. I do know it's just plain ungrateful for the Sacrifice which He has wrought.

Don't particularly like "who you are"? Neither does anyone who knows himself to be... a Sinner.

But at least, if we don't take the easy "short-cut" outta here, we can serve Him for the rest of our days.

LUKE 17:5-10
And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

He believes he has brought too much shame to his church, God, and his family to the point that less shame would be brought on God's kingdom if he simply "checked out" ~~ oh, cry me a river. I know formerly-excommunicated OPC Elders, guilty of Adultery, who sweltered under Church Discipline for nearly five years before they were restored to Participation in Fellowship and Communion.

Suicide ain't the "easy way out", it's just plain ingratitude. When Christians screw up -- as we surely will, as we surely will -- we don't take the "easy way" out.

We desperately cling to the healing robe of Christ, and we do our Duty. That's Christianity.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

[newberger]

tame,

1. You friend, is arguing that the sin of suicide is a
"greater good", is going directly against St. Paul who
tells us the we may not do evil that good may abound.

2. in I Cor. handing the man over to Satan wa dis-
fellowshipping that (accordig to II Cor) led to
repentance and restoration. There is no repentance
from suicide.

3. The reason your friend feels so strongly is shame and
this shame is based of *pride*, not righteousness.

4. The feeling that one has sinned too much to be forgiven
is itself the sin of *despair* (I'm talking about the
*attitude*, not the emotion). God is never glorified
by despair.

5. That despair heaps insult on the Gospel and thus on
Christ because makes your friends sin greater than
Christ's sacrifice.

Can you let us know his first name for prayer???

Paul (aka Newberger)

[newberger]

Job was a righteous man, whereas this person has brought disrepute to God, his family, friends, etc. So in that sense he may think his trials are worse?

This is true of *anyone* who sins in view of others (most of us). God can only be glorified, here, by repentance, healing and transformation. Suicide brings great shame on the church because it proclaims to the world that the gospel and the church have failed your friend!

Tame, if your are that person. PLEASE! seek help. Remove the shame by letting God change you.

Paul (aka Newberger)

[newberger]

I certainly agree with you that he should obey God and live, but I don't think he would be eternally lost. He doesn't think so either.

What a gamble! What high stakes!

There is no promise in scripture that I can see that backs this up.

Paul

[newberger]

He argues that even if apparently selfish, it would truly benefit all involved in the long run. I'm deperately hoping he somehow get's a hold of the situation and bring good out of it. But he's almost unable to take care of basic responsiblities in life. Even making and keeping an appointment with a counselor seems insurmountable.

Then all this argument is a waste of time.

He needs hospitalization NOW. Arguing, even if you have the best arguments is feeding his self-pity and depression.

He is using the appearance of logic to justify his actions when thay are sourced in self-centered despair from depression.

Drive him to his counselor, yourself.

[tame]

Please don't take this wrong, as I'm sure not trying to be provocative. Although I understand and agree with much of what you wrote, the manner in which it was written would tend to push him further toward the choice of "checking out" because he would be angry, when he gets angry he tends to get more "foggy" in his perception, and he starts to feel even moe hopeless.

[american colleen]

Tame,

Since your friend is telling you he is thinking about suicide, he is crying for help.

Find the nearest psychiatric hospital near you and call them or call the suicide hotline or, if your pastor has been educated in counciling, call him for advice.

[drstevej]

Orthodox Presbyterian
Minister of Diplomacy
"Truth and a Two-by-Four"

 

[tame]

Tame, if your are that person. PLEASE! seek help.

For the record, the friend I refer to is not tame.
For prayer (and I do beg you please pray), refer to him as "Joey"

I thank so may of you for your insights--not that I agree with everythig written (neither I nor my friend think he'll go to hell if he takes his option, but it would be severe). Many of them have been very helpful (a couple were a bit harsh). I welcome any more further thoughts.

I think we can all agree, regardless of our denomination or religion, that this is one of the critical places where the theological rubber meets the road....it's not just "theological jausting". Again, I urge you to please pray!

[drstevej]

Tame, there has been enough discussion. Get help for your friend without delay. Period.

We will pray, but you need to act, not dialogue.

Ping me when you have taken action.

[american colleen]

Wise words, drstevej.

[tame]

Drstevej, I have been taking action but I respectfully take a different view on whether there's been enough dialogue. There are so many perspectives, words, things left unsaid for me to pass along...I don't think it could be over done. But please be assured I'll do what I can...."can" being the operative word.

[tame]

Find the nearest psychiatric hospital near you and call them or call the suicide hotline or, if your pastor has been educated in counciling, call him for advice.

It gets so complicated. Counselors and psychiatrists cost money which Joey does NOT have--being a conservative, he refuses welfare, he's not mentally able to work on a regular basis, he is so volatile it's hard for him to room with others, etc.

I just don't have all the resources and asnwers for him. The pastor is a good suggestion but can only do so much. This whole thing makes me understand in a whole new way why some people just wind up as homeless on the street. But Joey has sooooo much potential.

[tame]

Please understand the reason I want more input is I keep thinking there is something...anything (some group/organization of hcaritable or low cost christian hospital/psychiatrists) I haven't thought of.

[drstevej]

Has your friend been taken to or gone on his own to receive competent spiritual and medical help? Yes or no?

Don't be offended, but something in this strilkes me as less than up front. If you want to discuss the ethics of suicide start a thread. If you want advice for your friend, I think this thread has done that and should end.

Just my opinion.

[bows out of the discussion.]

[american colleen]

No, you are wrong here. A suicide hotline is free. In hospital psychiatric care is free if the person is on the verge of suicide.

If this guy is unable to work because of his mental problems, he needs medical care and not the back and forth conversation found on the Internet.

Tame, you are the one responsible for this guy, obviously. Get him some help - call the suicide hotline now and they will direct you where to go. It doesn't cost a penny.