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Dancing Our Prayers Away?
TCR News ^ | June 2003 | Carrie Tomko

Posted on 06/12/2003 6:57:13 AM PDT by NYer

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To: Corin Stormhands
No one was dancing at religious worship services within the temple area. David was dancing on his way through the city. Orthodox and traditional Catholics prefer reverent services that focus on God, not each other. For those who require more entertainment or a party atmosphere while worshiping the One, True God, there are many charismatic churches that offer various entertaining fare. If you'd like to point me in the direction of sources that can show that dancing has been an historical part of Christian worship (Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox) before the early 20th century America or even in Jewish synagogue worship, I'd really like to read up on it.
101 posted on 06/12/2003 6:18:01 PM PDT by southern_living (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi)
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To: TotusTuus
I'm beginning to think it stands for "Nervous Disorder".
102 posted on 06/12/2003 6:36:09 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: NYer
Cleveland Bishop Anthony M. Pilla

I should have known.

103 posted on 06/12/2003 6:39:34 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: southern_living
Here's an interesting link.

http://www.piney.com/CaneRidge1.html

104 posted on 06/12/2003 6:43:11 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: NYer
One of the parishes in my diocese earned a full page spread in the diocesan newspaper, on how liturgical dance brought the youth back to mass! They are so excited about it that they now want to make videos to be distributed across the US!!

How proud these apostate devils are of the huge and lavish granaries they have filled with chaff for our Lord to winnow into everlasting fire at the end. It makes your heart sink, but must spur you on to fight their ugly modernistic filth at every turn.
105 posted on 06/12/2003 6:46:18 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: drstevej
Dear Steve,

Isaiah 53 is one of my most favorite passages from scripture ...

If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him

How is it that so many, responsible for the souls of us mortals, can ignore this scriptural prophesy?!

the age when people are baptised is linked to their credible profession of faith in Christ.

In the catholic church, Confirmation "falls" between baptism and First Eucharist. Ostencibly, in order to receive Our Lord in the Eucharist, one has to be baptized and "reach the age of wisdom". When converts enter the church, they receive all 3 sacraments on the same night in that order. Depending on the situation, those already baptized are not re-baptized but are first confirmed before receiving the Eucharist.

I took no offense at your term "rant". That anyone would consider liturgical dance as even remotely meritorious of a place in our liturgy is far beyond my comprehension, based on my faith formation.


NYer - Centurion

106 posted on 06/12/2003 6:50:05 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
An Isaiah 53 thread...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/927817/posts
107 posted on 06/12/2003 6:52:34 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Thorondir
It makes your heart sink, but must spur you on to fight their ugly modernistic filth at every turn.

It does! But, like St. John the Baptist, I feel like "one voice crying in the wilderness."

108 posted on 06/12/2003 6:54:02 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
What the "modernists" want to do is apply that permission to western culture where 'dance' has a very different connotation.

We already have a liturgical dance in western culture. Its called the Solemn High Mass. No, its not "shake tha booty", but it certainly qualifies as "dance" in the sense of movements scripted to word and music.

This is what is truly blasphemous about the heretic innovators who wish to licentiously sexualize the liturgy into a Hootenanny.

109 posted on 06/12/2003 6:58:03 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Thorondir
I'm beginning to think it stands for "Nervous Disorder".

Just remember to give credit where credit is due. I invented that term on the way to brunch with Fr. Ken Myers and another friend in 1996 after High Mass at St. Boniface in Pittsburgh.

110 posted on 06/12/2003 7:03:11 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: drstevej
Here's an interesting link.

Ahhhh, yes, but can you top this group? The remains of several of their settlements may be found right here in Albany, NY and across the river in MA.

THE SHAKERS who shook their way into extinction by not marrying.

111 posted on 06/12/2003 7:04:04 PM PDT by NYer (Laudate Dominum)
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To: NYer
I am familiar with the Shakers. They should merger with the Quakers. The result?

Shake and Quake
112 posted on 06/12/2003 7:07:59 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: southern_living
If you'd like to point me in the direction of sources that can show that dancing has been an historical part of Christian worship (Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox) before the early 20th century America or even in Jewish synagogue worship, I'd really like to read up on it.

Not that I want to carry on this conversation anymore, cause 1) I'm not Catholic and 2) my initial post that dragged me in here was tongue in cheek, but the one example that comes to mind are the Shakers.

And I happen to attend one of those charismatic churches. I can assure you that the worship is pure and holy as well as jubilant.

113 posted on 06/12/2003 7:08:35 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: NYer; drstevej
Y'all beat me to it. I am familiar with the Shaker Village at Pleasant Hill, Kentucky.
114 posted on 06/12/2003 7:09:49 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Actually, I prefer Britten's from the War Requiem--complete with passing-over shells, bombs, and that wondrous open-fourth chime which is literally chilling...but you need even more orchestra than the Verdi.
115 posted on 06/12/2003 7:10:07 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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Comment #116 Removed by Moderator

To: Hermann the Cherusker
We sing the Parce every Lent. Good for the soul.

Rather like the first offering.
117 posted on 06/12/2003 7:12:13 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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Comment #118 Removed by Moderator

To: Hermann the Cherusker
Then God's blessings and all credit to you, my friend. The first time I saw that term I almost blew a mouthfull of water all over my keyboard.

Kudos!

Dominus vobiscum.
119 posted on 06/12/2003 7:14:22 PM PDT by Thorondir
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To: Loyalist
Well, as an ICEL offering it fails because you used the term "Lord," which, of course, is sexist and class-ist.

But it's a rather good overall draft. Still a bit scary, and we all know better than THAT!!! So, polish off those nasty parts and make God bi-sexed. It'll be so much nicer, Fluffkins.
120 posted on 06/12/2003 7:15:24 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: NYer
I often wonder how Dante would configure his 'Inferno" with today's [USCC] leaders.

Larger.

121 posted on 06/12/2003 7:19:37 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
"liturgical dance"

Listen carefully to the Kyrie from Hassler's Missa Secunda, and the 'tanz' is as clear as a bell.
122 posted on 06/12/2003 7:22:08 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Desdemona
OR--to the 'tanz' of the first movement of JSB's "Magnificat."
123 posted on 06/12/2003 7:23:11 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: ninenot
Dies Irae is difficult to translate into ICEL-speak because like Newspeak in 1984, there are no words in ICEL-speak to express certain concepts because the concepts themselves have been abolished.

No matter! The task of translating the 1962 Missal into ICEL-speak may be long and arduous, but already my labours have borne fruit!

124 posted on 06/12/2003 7:24:19 PM PDT by Loyalist (Keeper of the Schismatic Orc Ping List. Freepmail me if you want on or off it.)
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Comment #125 Removed by Moderator

To: drstevej; BlackElk
the Shakers. They should merger with the Quakers. The result? Shake and Quake

Later immortalized as "Shake, Rattle, and Roll" by close personal friends of BlackElk.

126 posted on 06/12/2003 7:24:53 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: ninenot; Corin Stormhands
The Pentecostals provide the "roll," right Corin?
127 posted on 06/12/2003 7:26:40 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Loyalist
Yeah. You'll get it done just in time to discover that ICEL has been deep-sixed by Card. George, Mgr. Wrenn (NYC) and Fr. Pokorsky (Arlington, VA.)

They are working on a REAL translation of the Latin originals of the NO, likely to be approved by Rome for publication/utilization in 2005 or so.

Then ICEL goes away because their cash-stream (the copyright royalties) go away.

You can bookmark this post. Watch and see.
128 posted on 06/12/2003 7:29:28 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: ninenot
What, we can't waltz?

There's all sorts of church music with ballroom overtones.
129 posted on 06/12/2003 7:33:34 PM PDT by Desdemona
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To: NYer
**Could you, were you alive then, dance below the cross bearing the Savior of the World, the Son of God? Could you?**

Absolutely not. I would be on my knees in the presence of the Lord, Jesus Christ, just as I am on my knees during the Consecration in the Mass when the bread and wine are turned into the Real Presence, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.
130 posted on 06/12/2003 7:33:36 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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Comment #131 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation
Could you, were you alive then, dance below the cross

Trick question.

Legend has it that the Cross was placed over Adam's grave. When the Sacred Blood trickled to Adam's bones, it is said that "Adam Danced" with joy--his redemption had come.

Roughly paraphrased from the book "Adam Danced" by Fr. Rutler...

132 posted on 06/12/2003 7:39:35 PM PDT by ninenot (Joe McCarthy was RIGHT, but Drank Too Much)
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To: drstevej
and the snakes. never forget the snakes.
133 posted on 06/12/2003 7:45:25 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (http://wardsmythe.crimsonblog.com)
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To: Thorondir
I believe I introduced the term here on FR. But I could be wrong. These things have a way of getting around.
134 posted on 06/12/2003 7:49:31 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: NYer
Eucharist: Holy Meal
135 posted on 06/12/2003 7:52:32 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sandyeggo
** (his name escapes me)**

Bruskewitz
136 posted on 06/12/2003 7:57:44 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: ninenot
I had never heard of Adam dancing at the foot of the Cross before.
137 posted on 06/12/2003 7:59:59 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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Comment #138 Removed by Moderator

Comment #139 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
i saw it after I posted the Nebraska bishop's name. Sorry.
140 posted on 06/12/2003 8:20:49 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sandyeggo
Saul was not left bereft.
141 posted on 06/12/2003 10:31:28 PM PDT by pascendi
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To: NYer; Polycarp
Um, Polycarp, does NYer's Post 91 qualify?

Apatheism

142 posted on 06/12/2003 10:55:21 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: TotusTuus; NYer
Uh, no. Too much zeal and righteous anger on her part.

Now if she knew it was wrong, but instead of fighting it rolled over and joined the new Liturgical Dance Costume Creation Ministry Subcommittee of the Lady's Altar Guild Society, then it might qualify.

143 posted on 06/12/2003 11:13:01 PM PDT by Polycarp (Free Republic: Where Apatheism meets "Conservatism.")
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To: Corin Stormhands
And I happen to attend one of those charismatic churches. I can assure you that the worship is pure and holy as well as jubilant.

I think one of the important points in a discussion like this is to examine the different types of worship among Christians. Trying to superficially compare the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with a typical pentecostal or fundamentalist worship service, for example, is trying to compare apples with oranges. The purposes and goals are quite different.

From a Catholic perspective, our Lord offers Himself in our time and space in an unbloody manner, in His one time and eternal Sacrifice of Calvary, on our behalf. The fruits of that Sacrifice are made present to us. To participate in the Mass, is to be present spiritually at these events. It is hard to see how dancing can enhance our participation, rather, it would help detract from the reality that we believe is occuring.

Most Protestants in America reject the whole idea of the Mass, and therefore talk about Church services. For some, reading and preaching from the Bible and singing songs to the Lord form the basis of their "central" worship. It is easy to see how dancing could be incorporated in this type of service without much of a problem.

While the Mass is the heart and core of Liturgy in the Church, the liturgical worship extends to additional forms. Perhaps, in dignified forms, the question of liturgical dance could occur outside of the Mass proper. Additionally, there are extra-liturgical worship forms used by some Catholics, some of which parallel what other Churches and ecclesial communions do for worship. Charismatic Catholics come to mind, as does some of the services done by the Neo-Catechumenate Way. "Dancing" is not necessarily out of the question in these forms.

144 posted on 06/12/2003 11:32:33 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: southern_living
No one was dancing at religious worship services within the temple area. David was dancing on his way through the city.

And even then, I believe the Hebrew points to a specific type of dance understood in that culture. A type that we Westerners would not necessarily recognize or understand. (Sort of a 'spur of the moment' non-choreographed 'whirling' dance in ecstasy done alone).

And remember, in the larger picture, it was the second attempt to move the Ark of the Covenant, which was, how shall we say, much more solemn than the first attempt?

For people who like to use this Scriptural passage for their liturgy-lite purposes, I would think reading the full context would go a long way in explaining why liturgy-lite is not a good idea! The first attempt seemed so much more fun - until an unfortunate non-Levite innocently touched the Ark (second no-no) which was carried on a cart (first no-no. The Ark was to be carried on the backs of the Levites with the poles commanded by God).

David and the rest of Israel had to go back and study up on the Law - a Law that pointed to the solemn Holiness of God and how to approach Him in worship - that God gave them concerning the Ark for their second attempt. Sound familiar? Maybe the Bishops need to review the Torah and Kings when making their decision.

145 posted on 06/12/2003 11:59:36 PM PDT by TotusTuus (Ordinary Time: The season of our vocation in the world)
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To: NYer

The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius Loyola have inspired and formed Christians for centuries. The Exercises have taken on a variety of forms, perhaps none as unique as this one. Rev. Robert VerEecke, S.J. has created a multimedia experience of music, dance, and performance which makes the Exercises come alive with renewed imagination and spiritual impact.

146 posted on 06/13/2003 4:52:21 AM PDT by american colleen
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To: Loyalist
Gag! Puke! Choke!
Did you write that? Or was that Marty Haugen? Whoever did certainly has the ICEL style of "translating" down...
147 posted on 06/13/2003 6:00:43 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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To: drstevej
Theological liberals (RCC ad Prot) are as unprincipaled as democrats.

Well Surprahse, surprahse, surprahse! For the most part, they are democrats.

148 posted on 06/13/2003 6:02:54 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard
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To: american colleen; NYer; BlackElk; Hermann the Cherusker; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; CCWoody; Polycarp; ...
Although the picture is black and white, let me guess: this jesuit dude is wearin' lavender.

Can't wait for his video with Richard Simmons,

Sweatin to the Rosary!
149 posted on 06/13/2003 6:12:42 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: american colleen; NYer; BlackElk; Hermann the Cherusker; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; CCWoody; Polycarp
[1] [2] 

Match the picture with the identification...

[a]    The Wizard of Oz Christmas Show (Youngstars2.com of Melbourne)

[b]    A Dancer's Christmas (Boston Liturgical Dance Ensemble)

150 posted on 06/13/2003 6:24:52 AM PDT by drstevej
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