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America's Defeat in Iraq

Posted on 09/01/2010 3:21:17 PM PDT by Zanton

It was called Operation Iraqi Freedom but it should have been called Operation Iraqi Self-Rule. "Autonomy" and "self-rule" are the political values which largely dominate the US and the world. Certainly more so than "democracy." And almost infinitely more so than "liberty."

After over 7 years, $700 billion, and 4000 killed, a fairly-bad, socialist, shariaist dictatorship (headed by Saddam) was replaced by a moderately superior one (headed by Maliki). Was this death-agony of effort worth it? Did this unending exercise in nation-building and self-sacrifice profit us?

Consider all the resultant violations of civil liberties at home, and support for friendly dictatorships abroad -- all the torture and detention without charge -- involved in our "war on terror." Consider all the hatred the world has now for "the American way" and capitalism and individual liberty.

After George Bush's admittedly-successful military Surge, does America and the world have more freedom and hope -- or less?


TOPICS: General Discussion; Issues
KEYWORDS: freedom; iraq; libertarianism; objectivism

1 posted on 09/01/2010 3:21:20 PM PDT by Zanton
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To: Zanton

IBTZ


2 posted on 09/01/2010 3:24:09 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: Zanton

Finally, IB4TZ!


3 posted on 09/01/2010 3:27:07 PM PDT by oprahstheantichrist (The MSM is a demonic stronghold, PLEASE pray accordingly - 2 Corinthians 10:3-5)
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To: Zanton

Saddam era was not even Shariah law.


4 posted on 09/01/2010 3:27:21 PM PDT by omega4179 (Thank you for a good run JD!)
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To: Zanton
As Dr. Savage has pointed out, it is a huge strategic blunder. Prior to invasion, Sunni Iraq countered Shiite Iran. Now the Shiites have an opportunity to reestablish the Persian Empire comprised of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

That should be sweet!

5 posted on 09/01/2010 3:27:36 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: Zanton

You’re a little late.


6 posted on 09/01/2010 3:28:28 PM PDT by snowrip (Liberal? You are a socialist idiot with no rational argument.)
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To: oprahstheantichrist

You and Sandrat above both say “IBTL.” Sounds impressive — but what does it mean??


7 posted on 09/01/2010 3:30:34 PM PDT by Zanton (a polite & open-minded, but fierce, advocate of classical liberalism & libertarianism)
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To: SandRat
IBTZ

Why do you say that?

8 posted on 09/01/2010 3:31:41 PM PDT by Fundamentally Fair (Bush: Mission Accomplished. Obama: Commission Accomplished.)
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To: Zanton

In Before The ZOT


9 posted on 09/01/2010 3:33:17 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: J Edgar
"Prior to invasion, Sunni Iraq countered Shiite Iran."

I have the same problem with Bush's policy, but to be fair, the treasonous democrats made it politically impossible to take any sort of aggressive actions against iran. In fact, I bet if he had taken any sort of military action, the bastards would have moved to cut military appropriations.

10 posted on 09/01/2010 3:33:58 PM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: Fundamentally Fair

Read his Profile he’s a Troll


11 posted on 09/01/2010 3:34:08 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: J Edgar

Perhaps. But the West couldn’t really deal with Saddam and his sons any longer. Haven’t you thought about what things would be like if Iraq was still under Saddam circa 2010? By now, he would had restarted his weapons program. Even if Obama wasn’t our President, it was inevitable that we’ll have another President just like Jimmy Carter and Saddam would had taken advantage of his indecisive leadership.


12 posted on 09/01/2010 3:34:37 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: J Edgar
"As Dr. Savage has pointed out, it is a huge strategic blunder. Prior to invasion, Sunni Iraq countered Shiite Iran. Now the Shiites have an opportunity to reestablish the Persian Empire comprised of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Iran.

That should be sweet!"

Strategic blunder is right! Why empower the somewhat inferior and less freedom-loving Shi'ites?

But the MAIN strategic blunder is, after victory, why not set up a fairly libertarian state, like Germany and Japan, after WWII? These guys are still our hard-core friends after 65 years!

13 posted on 09/01/2010 3:35:53 PM PDT by Zanton (a polite & open-minded, but fierce, advocate of classical liberalism & libertarianism)
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To: Zanton
What - no BARF alert?
14 posted on 09/01/2010 3:37:42 PM PDT by Apercu ("A man's character is hs fate" - Heraclitus)
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To: SandRat

you are soooo right.

“Liberal libertarian??? “WTF?

Just pops up with this drivel...thanks for the pre-Viking Kitty alert!!!


15 posted on 09/01/2010 3:38:33 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie (Ok, joke's over....Bring back Bush !)
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To: SandRat

Here is Zotten’s little autobiography, it’s quite interesting. I wonder what’s “beyond” being an Objectivist? (not sure what “objectivist” is, someone who looks at other people like Objects?) Thinks if everyone was one of these, there would be a “social paradise”. Pretty funny.

I’m a classical liberal, libertarian, Objectivist, and beyond. I’m also an intellectually fearless free-thinker and truth-seeker. I believe in aiming at individual happiness and personal greatness above all else. I also think life is a wonderous gift to be Enjoyed and Celebrated at all times! :-)

My fundamental viewpoint about pretty much everything can be described as “pure liberalism.” This philosophy is based upon the best and truest of the traditional liberal cultures of Greece, Rome, Europe, and America (all sadly defunct). It’s also based upon the best and truest of the avant-garde theories of Austrian economics, libertarian politics, and Objectivist philosophy.

This New Liberalism, as I teach it, is the general philosophy, or the family of philosophies, which is essentially based upon:

(1) the epistemology of reason, rationality, logic, and science;

(2) the metaphysics of physicality, mathematics, physics, mechanics, materialism, and empiricism;

(3) the personal ethics of individualism, self-interest, and private happiness;

(4) the social ethics of non-tyranny, non-criminality, honesty, compassion, comradship, and social utopia;

(5) the domestic politics of: freedom, justice, and individual rights; of life, liberty, property, and privacy; of security, safety, free will, and persuit of happiness;

(6) the foreign policy of: libertarianism, free exchange, minimal aid, isolationism, non-interference and yet rescue and liberation, peace and yet justice; of non-appeasement, non-collaboration, non-diplomatic recognition, and non-moral sanction of foreign tyranny;

(7) the economics of capitalism, free enterprise, free trade, and laissez-faire;

(8) the sociology of the brotherhood of man, empathy, live-and-let-live, non-fraud, and frank directness;

(9) the esthetics of vivacity, dynamism, and heroism;

(10) the spirituality of the sublime, transcendent, infinite, and great.

Understanding and practicing these liberal values is the key to social paradise and personal joy — to the good life for all.

Check me out at www.youtube.com/ClassicalLiberalFire!


16 posted on 09/01/2010 3:38:51 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.)
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

Summon the Viking Kitties!!!!!


17 posted on 09/01/2010 3:40:19 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: SandRat
Read his Profile he’s a Troll

I don't gather that from this post, his profile, or his posting history.

Now, if you just read the title of this thread, you might jump to a conclusion.

18 posted on 09/01/2010 3:40:25 PM PDT by Fundamentally Fair (Bush: Mission Accomplished. Obama: Commission Accomplished.)
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To: Zanton

You don’t even know history, You Maroon!

we conquered and OCCUPIED germany and japan!

Germany and Japan...Libertarian? You don’t even know what Libertarian is!!


19 posted on 09/01/2010 3:41:12 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie
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To: Fundamentally Fair

Read reply #16 he copied the Troll’s profile to the reply.


20 posted on 09/01/2010 3:42:31 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: Fundamentally Fair

You are right..he is NOT a troll, He is too stupid to be a troll...
He is just very confused.


21 posted on 09/01/2010 3:42:54 PM PDT by Recovering Ex-hippie
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To: SandRat

Fundamentally Fair got the ZOT...

Do we know why?


22 posted on 09/01/2010 3:44:01 PM PDT by Cyber Ninja (Live and Let Live; is not working...)
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To: Zanton

I can’t question the wisdom of taking out Saddam and his evil sons and assorted other thugs. As they say out West, there’s just some folks that need killin’.

The experiment in nation-building is another story altogether and we are a long way from knowing how that story turns out. I’m a pessimist by nature, and I believe we we be involved in some kind of insurgency before the end of the decade.

But the key issue isn’t how many troops we have in Iraq or even whether the experiment in Iraqi democracy succeeds. What does matter is our overall ability to project power into the Middle East.

I just hope that the next time the balloon goes up in the desert we finally say “enough” and unleash HELL on the barbarians. Seizing the Saudi oil fields, and leveling Mecca and Medina with conventional explosives would be a great start.

But I’m afraid that we’ve become too cowardly to defend ourselves, even though we have the wherewithal many times over.


23 posted on 09/01/2010 3:48:51 PM PDT by Colonel Blimp
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To: Cyber Ninja

One never knows.


24 posted on 09/01/2010 3:50:32 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: Zanton

Your point is spot on. Our Treasonous State Department put the kabash on a sane, winning approach from early on!


25 posted on 09/01/2010 3:50:54 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: Zanton

IBTZ...definitely.


26 posted on 09/01/2010 3:51:44 PM PDT by A.Hun (Common sense is no longer common.)
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To: Zanton
"Fairly" bad? It was, at the time, one of the worst police states in the world whose behavior was unstable and strategically threatening. It had gassed 15,000 Kurds. It had brutally invaded a defenseless neighbor in an armored blitzkrieg. It had extensive links with terrorist organizations of all stripes and was poised to seize the Saudi oil fields before being thrown back in a successful but tragically incomplete campaign in '91. It was openly defying the no-fly zones, shooting at our aircraft, and broadcasting that it was stockpiling nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. There was nothing acceptable about it.

The invasion will go down as a geostrategic move of the first order when the posturing stops and the sober assessments get some breathing room. The thing bought us at least a decade in the confrontation with radical Islam and forced the latter's adherents into open warfare on our terms. And our armed forces killed them in droves.

As for setting up a liberal democracy, you're welcome to educate us all as to how you would do that in Iraq. I'm sure Petraeus and Odierno would love to know how they failed.

27 posted on 09/01/2010 3:51:55 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: SandRat
Troll? I don't see how. I always post to the libertarian section of FreeRepublic, and always write respectfully and politely. Jim Robinson strikes me as a strong, confident character who clearly allows vigorous discussion and debate. And he's somewhat libertarian himself.
28 posted on 09/01/2010 3:58:45 PM PDT by Zanton (a polite & open-minded, but fierce, advocate of classical liberalism & libertarianism)
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To: Colonel Blimp
" I can’t question the wisdom of taking out Saddam and his evil sons and assorted other thugs. As they say out West, there’s just some folks that need killin’."

I agree. But we should have replaced him with a system and leader far more Western liberal and friendly to America.

" But I’m afraid that we’ve become too cowardly to defend ourselves, even though we have the wherewithal many times over."

I agree with this too. But we need to get our political values right. More liberty and individual rights and less democracy and self-rule.

29 posted on 09/01/2010 4:06:19 PM PDT by Zanton (a polite & open-minded, but fierce, advocate of classical liberalism & libertarianism)
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To: Zanton

From your profile that’s what I read.


30 posted on 09/01/2010 4:09:33 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country! What else needs said?)
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To: Zanton
You and Sandrat above both say “IBTL.” Sounds impressive — but what does it mean??

Much of the recent rhetoric amounts to just that - what does it mean? Time and media propaganda has caused us to lose sight of why we are there. Does anyone remember the first Gulf War when GHW Bush threw Saddam out of Kuwait, a country he had illegally invaded? Does anyone remember how we kicked Saddam's Republican Guard's ass? Does anyone remember that in order to save himself Saddam begged for a cease fire? Does anyone remember that George H. W. Bush agreed because the MSM was highlighting the way we were destroying the Republican Guard in their retreat from Kuwait in what the MSM called the shooting gallery?

Unfortunately, Bush left the details to Gen. Schwartzkof (sp ?) and he allowed Saddam to keep hjs helocoptors although there was a no fly zone imposed. Saddam used the helicopters to suppress the general uprising by the people that President G.H.W. Bush encouraged. The Kurds in the North were slaughtered and the opposition in the south was also. The defeat of the popular uprising was the fault of Schwartzkov, no one else.

After that Saddam continually violated his ceasefire agreement. He kept trying to use aircraft to suppress opposition, he interfered with and eventually expelled the UN WMD inspectors. He violated all the agreements he had made to save his ass.

Saddam also provided training facilities for al Qaeda terrorist and paid money to the families of the "martyrs" to encourage them to kill many innocents while they died for the cause.

Does anyone remember the mass graves with over 300,00 people we found after invading? Does anyone remember the rape rooms, the shredders, the torture chambers, we found. Does anyone remember that Saddam's sons would go to night clubs and select any woman they wanted, even the brides in a wedding party, to take and do with as they pleased? To think we did not do a great thing in Iraq is to be naive. Unfortunately, this administration is trying to give it all back.

31 posted on 09/01/2010 4:13:18 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government)
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To: J Edgar

Dr Savage? ....what a joke


32 posted on 09/01/2010 4:16:14 PM PDT by woofie
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To: Zanton

I dont see Hussein starting any new wars ...do you?


33 posted on 09/01/2010 4:18:31 PM PDT by woofie
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To: Zanton

“But the MAIN strategic blunder is, after victory, why not set up a fairly libertarian state, like Germany and Japan, after WWII? These guys are still our hard-core friends after 65 years!”

Germany & Japan were well-established nations comprised of a single ethnic group. There were the social building blocks of a modern liberal society in place that could be cultivated.

Iraq... much less so. But Iraq has a fairly advanced society compared to much of the Arab world, so the chances for success were there.

Afghanistan... forget it. Loyalties there run from individual-to-family-to-Clan. I rather doubt that anybody outside of Kabul considers themselves an Afghan rather than a Pashtun, Tadjik or what have you.


34 posted on 09/01/2010 4:30:38 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: Mind-numbed Robot

Much of what you said is true... except the Republican Guard were not really in Kuwait. They were positioned well to the north & west so that they could act as a strategic reserve. Iraqi regular infantry forces were on the line in Kuwait & up on the Saudi border. They got slaughtered or surrendered en mass.

Much of the Iraqi Republican guard bugged out when they realized that the US & allied advance rolled right over their front line troops on the border without a hiccup. Had they attempted a counterattack they’d have been destroyed. A couple of the IRG divisions got badly mauled, but significant portions got away and were later reconstituted to fight the internal uprising.

GHWB’s cease fire was a huge mistake.


35 posted on 09/01/2010 4:35:28 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: SandRat

I thought about it for a while.

It is a prank. He didn’t get the ZOT.


36 posted on 09/01/2010 6:01:07 PM PDT by Cyber Ninja (Live and Let Live; is not working...)
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To: Tallguy

Thanks for jogging my memory. One other thing I remember from that was after it was over someone was interviewing one of their tank commanders and he said the first he knew that American troops were in the area was when the tank next to him exploded. Our technology was awesome.


37 posted on 09/01/2010 6:17:49 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government)
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To: woofie

“Dr Savage? ....what a joke”


Thanks for the informative, in-depth analysis, support by citing facts and advancing cogent, logical argument!


38 posted on 09/01/2010 6:34:13 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: J Edgar
Ok here ya go ....here is an informative, in-depth analysis, supported by facts and advanced cogent, logical arguments:

Dr Gene Scott

39 posted on 09/01/2010 7:25:33 PM PDT by woofie
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To: woofie

As long as you have done your best, you should feel content.


40 posted on 09/01/2010 8:17:20 PM PDT by J Edgar
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