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U.S., SAS's unreported casualties
United Press International ^ | November 17, 2001 | RICHARD SALE, UPI Terrorism Analyst

Posted on 11/17/2001 7:04:18 PM PST by HAL9000

   NEW YORK, Nov. 17 (UPI) -- The Pentagon is not reporting battle casualties suffered by U.S. Special Forces fighting near the southern Taliban stronghold of Kandahar and some other one-time Taliban strong points, administration sources speculated.

   "Some fatalities could be involved," an administration source said, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said there are estimates reported that between 25 to 40 Americans had been killed so far in clashes, but acknowledged that these were figures contained in "hard copy reports," and had not been confirmed.

   A U.S. government official said: "The Pentagon takes casualties from one operation and extrapolates."

   While some casualties have been due to friendly fire, most have been the result of intense battle clashes with the Taliban, with fighting rising to its most savage levels to date in some areas, these officials said.

   These sources added that the British Special Air Services (SAS) troops in action in Afghanistan have also suffered casualties that were not being reported.

   The British Embassy did not return phone calls.

   "The administration is managing the war differently," one U.S. intelligence official said when asked about casualties. "We've begun to do what the British used to do so well -- lie. It's an `all of our aircraft returned safely' approach."

   This source said that he had seen reports of 25 to 40 U.S. fatalities, but said the figures were in "cables and reports" and not confirmed.

   But as to casualties, he emphasized they had occurred: "Look, you cannot wage a hard war in earnest without taking casualties. We are waging war in earnest."

   John Pike, president of Washington-based GlobalSecurity. Org, told United Press International: "The press can't say it wasn't warned," and he referred to a press conference last month where Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was quizzed about the Taliban displaying a wheel of a helicopter, torn off in an accident, but which the Taliban claimed was shot down.

   At the end of his explanation, Rumsfeld looked at the reporters and according to Pike, Rumsfled stated the equivalent of: "This is the last time I'm telling you the truth."

   Pike added: 'I think he meant it."

   One U.S. intelligence official told UPI that during the war in Bosnia: "There were U.S. casualties in that campaign that simply were never declared. I think the Pentagon thought, hell, we got away with it then, why not now?"

   Rumsfeld acknowledged yesterday, during a trip to Illinois, that U.S. commando teams in the south are working to foment anti-Taliban rebellion by Pashtun tribal leaders. He added: "They're looking for information, they're interdicting roads, they're killing Taliban that won't surrender and al Qaeda that are trying to move from one place to another."

   Rumsfeld said the teams were also scouting potential landing fields for U.S. and coalition aircraft.

   Asked if the troops were engaged in ground combat, Rumsfeld said: "The answer is yes. In the south, they've gone into places and met resistance and dealt with it."

   But Rumsfeld said that no Americans had been killed in such operations, a remark one State Dept. official called: "Crazy."

   "The rationale in denying the losses is that you don't want to give aid and comfort to the enemy," this source said.

   The question of casualties first arose in the wake of an Oct. 20 raid involving Delta commandos who arrived in five helicopters to ransack the fortified home of reclusive Taliban leader Mullah Mohamed Omar in the village of Baba Sahib in the Arghandab district, five miles northwest of Kandahar.

   A large body of 200 Rangers, plus helicopters and AC-130 gunships were sent in to back up the Delta force.

   The raid, whose execution was described by a senior Pentagon official, as "flawless in execution" was to be the start of new, fast-paced hit-and-run ground strategy that would alter the course of the war, said Pentagon officials at the time.

   But instead of being deft and fast paced, the mission proved to be cumbersome, noisy, and maladroit, and not only because of the back-up forces, according to one administration official.

   Speaking on condition of anonymity, he said: "We were unfamiliar with the area, and we had poor intelligence. We didn't expect the Taliban to be there."

   The Taliban opened fire as the Delta emerged from the house, he said.

   Another U.S. government official said that Taliban resistance around Mullah Omar's fortified house, built for him by bin Laden, was "surprisingly stiff," in spite of 13 days of pervious aerial bombardment.

   Initial reports of casualties were as high as 22 wounded, but this figure was later "downgraded," he said.

   When a DIA official was queried about reports of casualties, he said: "I have absolutely nothing to give you on that," and recommended that United Press International talk to public affairs.

   According to other U.S. government officials, in the Oct. 20 raid, some hostile fire initially was mistakenly identified as coming from Taliban dug-in tanks or large mortars, U.S. government officials said. Actually, most of the fire proved to be coming from shoulder-fired Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs), which caused serious shrapnel, wounds among the attackers and slowed them to a stall, U.S. government sources said.

   The counterattack by the Taliban was "amazingly swift and tough," one U.S. intelligence official said.

   The Oct. 20 raid was mounted from the remote Pakistan airstrip at Dalbandin, Pakistan, only 37 miles from the Afghan border, U.S. officials said. The raid was similar in character to the joint 1998 FBI/Kenyan security forces raid of the Kenya house of Wadhi El-Hage, sentenced last month in Manhattan Federal District Court to life in prison without parole for his part in the August 1998 bombings of two U.S. Embassies in East Africa in which 224 were killed and 4,600 wounded.

   In the raid on El-Hage's house, the FBI seized hard drives containing details of bin Laden cells in East Africa and inflicted "significant damage" on his al Qaeda organization, according to U.S. intelligence officials.

   But in this raid, the Delta force came away "with little of intelligence value," according to one administration official. "We wanted their Rolodexes, their plans, their chit-chat, the names of Taliban commanders. We didn't get them," he said.

   Top-ranked investigative reporter Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker Magazine first made the allegation of casualties and the mishandling of the mission.

   Hersh told United Press International, "The standard for being wounded was very flexible. If you had a shrapnel wound which could be stitched up and you could still walk, then you weren't classified as a casualty."

   A U.S. government source confirmed this. "Hersh right is on the money," he said. "The Pentagon doctored the figures of casualties. We are back in the Gulf War syndrome where we won a great victory with hardly any casualties. I think it's a mis-reading of the U.S. public mood."



TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
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1 posted on 11/17/2001 7:04:18 PM PST by HAL9000
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To: HAL9000
This is a slippery slope.
2 posted on 11/17/2001 7:07:42 PM PST by a history buff
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To: HAL9000
Not sure what to believe.

I would also note that we are not reporting enemy casualties.

I do note this author has reverted back to the Delta-force-mission-was-a-screw-up tune. Where's Pierre Salinger (sp?) when you need him? Or Peter Arnett? Boy, then we'd get the truth. Oh, and WHO is the guy who wrote this article. He's new to me.

3 posted on 11/17/2001 7:09:48 PM PST by Blueflag
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To: HAL9000
I would be pleasantly shocked if we did not have a couple of dozen dead at this point.
4 posted on 11/17/2001 7:10:51 PM PST by Senator Pardek
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To: Blueflag
I don't want to know our casualty figures. Just their casualty figures.
5 posted on 11/17/2001 7:12:42 PM PST by Ciexyz
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To: HAL9000
UPI is fishing for a story ... unnamed sources, etc., etc..
No doubt we will experience casualities, but at this point they are minimal ... what we have here are UPI writers with deadlines and no facts.
6 posted on 11/17/2001 7:13:30 PM PST by BluH2o
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To: Blueflag; aculeus
Oh, and WHO is the guy who wrote this article?

An excellent question, and damned if I know. That naturally leads to another question: why should I or anyone believe this nonentity Richard Sale and his anonymous sources?

7 posted on 11/17/2001 7:17:40 PM PST by dighton
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To: a history buff
There's nothing wrong in keeping the figures quiet for a while, until the dust settles down. Especially given that it's from an all volunteer military. Nobody in these forces didn't want to be there in spite of the risk. The Taliban get encouragement out of dancing on our graves, and they can't do that if we don't show them our graves to dance on.
8 posted on 11/17/2001 7:20:35 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck
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To: HAL9000
Between UPI and Reuters they just can't wait to print an article that is negative against the U.S.
My hopes and prayers are that we have not suffered any casualties and each and every one of our boys come home safely.

God Bless The U.S.A.

9 posted on 11/17/2001 7:21:07 PM PST by MJY1288
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To: HAL9000
" John Pike, president of Washington-based GlobalSecurity. Org, told United Press International: "The press can't say it wasn't warned," and he referred to a press conference last month where Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was quizzed about the Taliban displaying a wheel of a helicopter, torn off in an accident, but which the Taliban claimed was shot down." This Pike is a consultant, and President of his own web page.

HERE is his Bio.

I never lent much credence to the guy, as his forte appears to be naysaying and sound bites.

10 posted on 11/17/2001 7:21:48 PM PST by Anti-Bubba182
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: HAL9000
Of course we're going to get lies. We must be protected from the truth like children.
12 posted on 11/17/2001 7:23:17 PM PST by Aerial
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To: HAL9000
If there are battle casualties then the People deserve to know.

To deny that there have been any killed in battle, and later be shown otherwise, will undermine the administration's credibility sooner or later. Also the fallen deserve their honors.

Indeed a slippery slope, as some have said.

13 posted on 11/17/2001 7:23:29 PM PST by sargon
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To: BluH2o
UPI is fishing for a story ... unnamed sources, etc., etc..

Maybe they've been hangin' with the zero-credibility DEBKA folks!!!

14 posted on 11/17/2001 7:23:31 PM PST by AlaskaErik
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To: HAL9000
This is the long awaited Taliban counteroffensive. On point we find Seymor Hersch and Helen Thomas. These miserable excuses for journalists may just be flunkies in the hands of Clinton holdovers at State. Their predictions, like so many Talibunnies, are falling at an alarming rate. (Incidently, the implication about Rumsfeld is a lie. He said the exact opposite.) The first casualty of the war on terrorism is the credibility of the leftist media.
15 posted on 11/17/2001 7:25:41 PM PST by Faraday
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To: HAL9000
If this guy is a terrorism specialist....then I am the President. This is the same junk the liberals have been pushing for weeks....just in a slightly different format.
16 posted on 11/17/2001 7:27:23 PM PST by TheLion
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To: AlaskaErik
In order to do that, they would have to stay in Tel Aviv.
17 posted on 11/17/2001 7:28:27 PM PST by 11B3
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To: Blueflag
Folks, this guy appears to be well-connected in the military way. Here's just the first ten from Google:

Google Searched the web for "richard sale" terrorism.
Results 1 - 10 of about 527. Search took 0.04 seconds.

Osama Bin Laden Attempts At Droping Seattle Space Needle
... 12:18 (ET). Osama bin Laden planned to drop Space Needle By RICHARD SALE, Terrorism

Correspondent WASHINGTON, March 3 (UPI) -- A US government counter-terrorist ... www.ifa-usapray.org/ARCHIVE_TERRORISM/OsamaBinLadenSpaceNeedle.html - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Analysis: PLA driving crisis
... By RICHARD SALE, Terrorism Correspondent. The Chinese military appears to be driving the current standoff between China and the United States over the April 1 ...
www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/010410-aries5.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

US prepares another spy plane
... By RICHARD SALE, Terrorism Correspondent Even as the 24 crew members of a downed spy plane are on their way home from detention on a Chinese island, the United ...
www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/010411-aries1.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.globalsecurity.org ]

Analysis: Mideast violence may spread R. Sale
... Mideast violence may spread. By Richard Sale, UPI Terrorism Correspondent. Ten months after ...
www.chretiens-et-juifs.org/Geopolitique/Violence_spreading.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

Marine Corps & Military News
... By RICHARD SALE, UPI Terrorism Correspondent. Copyright 2001 by United Press International. SUBJECT CODE: 02000000 03000000 16000000. ...
usmchqnews.subportal.com/comtex/Front_Page/22799721.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

The Bible Project
... attack on Palestinian-controlled territory. In an article by by Richard Sale, UPI Terrorism Correspondent we read that one former CIA official, still active in ...
www.thebibleproject.com/article.php?sid=157 - 29k - Cached - Similar pages

Anti-Terrorism Experts Suspect Bin Laden
... Anti-Terrorism Experts Suspect Bin Laden by RICHARD SALE, UPI Terrorism Correspondent. NEW YORK, Sep ...
www.gaywired.com/storydetail.cfm?Section=12&ID=6883 - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Yahoo! Groups : RMNEWS_DAILY_EMAILS Messages :Message 15099 of ...
... buy Russian "stealth" destroyers China to buy Russian "stealth" destroyers By RICHARD SALE, Terrorism Correspondent Monday, 30 April 2001 22:50 (ET) China is ...
groups.yahoo.com/group/RMNEWS_DAILY_EMAILS/message/15099 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

Reports | The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists
... headlined “US Physics Blunder Almost Ended Space Programs,” penned by “Terrorism Correspondent” Richard Sale. The lead of the 1,300-word article claimed ...
www.bullatomsci.org/issues/2001/ma01/ma01auer.html - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

Afghanistan News Update ... Analysis: Terror's global reach By RICHARD SALE, Terrorism Correspondent WASHINGTON,
Jan. 5 (UPI) -- When the trial of four agents of Saudi terrorist Osama bin ...
www.afghanradio.com/news/2001/january/jan62001.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

18 posted on 11/17/2001 7:29:24 PM PST by Pharmboy
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To: HAL9000
If there are casualties, the military can only hold off so long before sending two officers in Class A's to the home of the next of kin. When that happens, someone will tip off the media and they'll be running like chickens with their heads cut off to get the story. This is something that couldn't be covered up very long, even if the gov't wanted to.
19 posted on 11/17/2001 7:29:29 PM PST by AlaskaErik
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To: HAL9000
At the end of his explanation, Rumsfeld looked at the reporters and according to Pike, Rumsfled stated the equivalent of: "This is the last time I'm telling you the truth."

Rumsfeld's done a superb job - but to affirmatively lie about casualties or other aspects of the war is unacceptable.

20 posted on 11/17/2001 7:29:31 PM PST by Kenyon
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