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Abolishing Amtrak: Why I Voted No
National Association of Rail Passengers | November 2001 | James Coston

Posted on 12/18/2001 11:42:31 AM PST by Publius

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To: caddie
At last, somebody who gets it.
21 posted on 12/18/2001 12:14:29 PM PST by Publius
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To: caddie
A good part of Florida would not be developed if it wasn't for the rail (Henry Flagler)
22 posted on 12/18/2001 12:16:34 PM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Texaggie79
ba-da-boom
23 posted on 12/18/2001 12:16:53 PM PST by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: cksharks
Why in the hell should a person in Alaska or Idaho give a shit if a bunch of eletist punks from the north east get any of their money.

It's a concept called a Nation, best exemplified by the Latin motto, E pluribus unum.

24 posted on 12/18/2001 12:17:01 PM PST by Publius
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To: Rodney King
I was going to rip this piece apart, bit by bit, but the guy has such a poor understanding of basic economics that I don't even know where to start.

Amen. A government junkie and economic illiterate.

25 posted on 12/18/2001 12:18:15 PM PST by Protagoras
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To: Publius
I was speaking more specifically as they relate to people transportation. I have no problem with railroads hauling cargo as long as the taxpayer doesn't subsidize them. However, I am opposed to any subsidy whatsoever for passenger transportation either on planes buses or cars. let the market determine whether they should survive or not.
26 posted on 12/18/2001 12:21:51 PM PST by Cacique
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To: Alberta's Child
Maybe because the typical resident of Alaska or Idaho receives more in the form of Federal spending than he pays in taxes. In the Northeast, it's the other way around.

Sadly that's what this country has become. A nation of people trying to suck the government teat fast enough to get thier share of the milk. They have bought into the notion that wealth is going to be redistributed anyway so why fight it? Suck harder and make youself well instead of reclaiming our heritage of freedom. It's a sell out that almost no one recognises anymore. Sad

27 posted on 12/18/2001 12:25:02 PM PST by Protagoras
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To: Doctor Stochastic
The lack of allocation of costs due to government subsidies means that it's impossible to rationally allocate funds...I do not know which of airlines or trains or cars or canals are better; I know that it can't be computed as of now. Politics drives monetary allocations, not markets.

Stated succinctly and eloquently. Because of the strong belief in a government role in "internal improvements", the government has been using its "hidden hand" since Madison's presidency. The author wants us to accept that fact and go to the next level -- subsidizing the railroads because it is cheaper than further subsidies for the highways.

28 posted on 12/18/2001 12:25:24 PM PST by Publius
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To: RedBloodedAmerican;Alberta's Child
Good point, also lots and lots of the midwest and west.

People are oblivious to the fact that there was a huge and intricate interurban rail system in the east, midwest and west, since the time of the Civil War, and before, and its contribution to the growth of the US is immeasurable.

And it really didn't start to atrophy until after WW2.

And government subsidies, in one form or another, have existed from the time of the Eire Canal, and before, for various transportation projects.

Can you imagine what it would cost to fly, if the ticket actually represented the costs of the airport, the FAA, the air traffic control system, the costs of training pilots, etc.

I would add that much of the Canadian identity is tied up in the not-so-trivial task of uniting Canada's remote towns with the Canadian Pacific in the nineteenth century.

29 posted on 12/18/2001 12:30:29 PM PST by caddie
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To: ThomasJefferson
Hey, don't get me wrong. I think people in the Northeast deserve to get screwed because THEY are the ones who insist on electing politicians who are consistently in favor of high taxes.

Anyone who is dumb enough to vote for a thief deserves to have his pocket picked.

30 posted on 12/18/2001 12:32:17 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
We pay a gas tax for roads. Roads are less costly unless you say the gasoline tax is not a use tax and is part of the general revenue. Once the right-of-way is established and paid for, trains should pay their own way with no government funding.
31 posted on 12/18/2001 12:32:31 PM PST by liberty21
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To: Publius; Rodney King
I think the author is on to something. If it weren't for the federal government's huge subsidies to the airline industry and to the building of Interstate highways, the train would probably be a very desirable alternative.

However, I think his argument is stronger when it is used to justify reducing government support for the airline industry and highways than to increase taxpayer support for passenger rail.

32 posted on 12/18/2001 12:33:28 PM PST by FormerLib
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To: caddie
People are oblivious to the fact that there was a huge and intricate interurban rail system in the east, midwest and west, since the time of the Civil War, and before, and its contribution to the growth of the US is immeasurable.

And it really didn't start to atrophy until after WW2.

The railroad industry has nothing to complain about, since they were one of the earliest beneficiaries of government largesse in the transportation industry. The government has simply decided to subsidize someone else these days.

Canada actually has an interesting history as far as the railroad is concerned. British Columbia refused to join the Canadian confederation in the 1860s until the Canadian government promised to connect the province to the rest of the country via the railroad.

33 posted on 12/18/2001 12:37:04 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Cacique
However, I am opposed to any subsidy whatsoever for passenger transportation either on planes buses or cars. let the market determine whether they should survive or not.

As a libertarian, I support that in principle. But let's look at it in practice.

The airlines could create a consortium to take over the air traffic control function and then buy all the airports. The cost of air travel would skyrocket, and there would be a lot of airline bankruptcies, but as Joseph Schumpeter has said, that's just "creative destruction". Only those who could afford to fly would do so -- until the costs were amortized.

We could end the highway subsidy by installing a transponder in each automobile. Once a month, the motorist would get a bill for his travel on local and county roads, which would remove the need for a property tax for local and county road-building. He would get a bill from the state for his travel on state-maintained roads, which would permit repeal of the gasoline tax and other car-related taxes. And he would be billed for his travel on the former interstate highways, now sold to private entrepreneurs, that would permit the end of federal gasoline taxes. But the motorist would raise holy hell, and FReepers would start muttering about "the Communists trying to track our movements and herd us all into the cities to control us."

Which level playing field works best? A totally private transportation infrastructure, or a mix?

34 posted on 12/18/2001 12:38:04 PM PST by Publius
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To: liberty21
We pay a gas tax for roads.

Gas tax revenues are generally only used for capital projects, not operating expenses. The cost of plowing or resurfacing a road is normally paid out of general tax revenues.

35 posted on 12/18/2001 12:39:04 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: caddie
I recently took the "California Zephyr" train on Amtrak (Chicago-San Francisco). It was a very enjoyable experience, although I saw much "government-employee" type incompetence and laziness. I think a high-speed rail system (even for long distances) and a fully privatized system would be awesome for this country. The current costs for a transnational trip reeks of bureaucracy...I think a private, efficient company could compete price-wise with the airlines (even for sleeper cars).
36 posted on 12/18/2001 12:40:33 PM PST by Azzurri
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To: liberty21
We pay a gas tax for roads. Roads are less costly unless you say the gasoline tax is not a use tax and is part of the general revenue.

In every state in the Union, the state gasoline tax pays a bit less than half the cost of building and maintaining state highways. Other car-related taxes and contributions from the general fund (sales taxes and income taxes) make up the remainder.

Automobile drivers are heavily subsidized by the taxpayers in their respective states. It's one of the dirty little secrets of the transportation game.

37 posted on 12/18/2001 12:44:11 PM PST by Publius
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To: Azzurri
One of the problems you have these days is that a "railroad" is becoming much more of a one-dimensional facility than it ever was before. High-speed rail service requires a certain type of railroad infrastructure (particularly superelevation on curves) that are not compatible with freight trains. This has become more of an issue in recent years due to the dramatic increase in containerized freight, much of which is moved on double-stack rail cars that couldn't possibly operate on a track that has a substantial degree of superelevation on curves.
38 posted on 12/18/2001 12:44:25 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: caddie
Can you imagine what it would cost to fly, if the ticket actually represented the costs of the airport, the FAA, the air traffic control system, the costs of training pilots, etc.

The cost of training pilots is already in there. The airlines also pay the airports for gate access and landing fees. These are also already in your ticket, although I have no idea if the costs truly reflect what it costs to run the airpot. Even if I were to concede that air travel costs would go up if the whole system were privatised, I do not have a problem with that. There is no reason why non-fliers should subsidize fliers, particularly since fliers are on average wealthier than non-fliers.

39 posted on 12/18/2001 12:48:36 PM PST by Rodney King
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To: Azzurri
Agreed, and whatever 'subsidy' would be, might be simply the absence of murderous taxes.

The average company in the US pays an incredible amount of corporate tax.

Do away with that stifling influence, and the rails would thrive.

Is it considered a 'subsidy' if it is simply the absence of murderously high taxes?

Look what happened to e-tailing and e-commerce in general, helped in part by absence of taxation on internet transaction.

The central lesson is, don't tax it, and if it is remotely feasible, in the United States of today, it will thrive.

40 posted on 12/18/2001 12:48:49 PM PST by caddie
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