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Abolishing Amtrak: Why I Voted No
National Association of Rail Passengers | November 2001 | James Coston

Posted on 12/18/2001 11:42:31 AM PST by Publius

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To: Azzurri
...I saw much "government-employee" type incompetence and laziness...The current costs for a transnational trip reeks of bureaucracy...

I've taken Amtrak transnationally, and I take it from Seattle to Portland and back quite often for business. (I-5 between those two cities is a mess; the trucks will run you right off the road.)

You're right about "laziness" on the long-distance lines. Some crew members are conscientious, but there is always the bureaucratic time-server, protected by his union. The cost of a transnational trip by sleeper is the same as first class air fare. You're right, though, an aggressive marketing campaign -- the kind only available from an entrepreneurial organization -- would bring the cost down.

41 posted on 12/18/2001 12:51:56 PM PST by Publius
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To: caddie
You're right about "murderous taxes". I called them "predatory".

The railroads pay property taxes on their rail lines and facilities, to include the train stations. The airlines don't have to worry about that expense in relation to airports.

The government has a nasty tendency to penalize success.

42 posted on 12/18/2001 12:56:25 PM PST by Publius
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To: Rodney King
Not just privatized, but, the ticketed passengers absorb the costs of development of the entire national air transportation system.

That's a whole different ball game.

I do not like socialism, or pork, or anything that can be done better by the free enterprise system.

But if we were to start from 1776 and insist that there would be no government backing or subsidy of any form of transportation, then you would see a completely different United States today, IMHO.

It would be a lot less advanced, a lot poorer, and maybe parts of it would belong to Spain, France, England, and Germany.

And I don't think we would be commemorating the moonshot anytime soon.

NASA would not have been funded if left to the private sector.

And I'm not saying that all NASA does is necessary.

I am saying that there are things that the Federal government ought to provide for, that no private citizen or corporation can supply, provided that it is of significant value to the country's welfare and security.

And I would maintain that a first-class rail system is exactly that.

More so this year than any other year, except any perhaps up to and including 1830.

43 posted on 12/18/2001 12:57:05 PM PST by caddie
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To: Publius
How much do the rail companies pay in taxes, of all kinds?

Because if it is a significant amount, say, 15 to 30 percent of their gross revenues, then all the Feds have to do to have a first-class rail system up and running by 2010 is to simply rescind all their taxes.

44 posted on 12/18/2001 12:59:11 PM PST by caddie
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To: caddie
I don't have the figures at my fingertips, but the federal taxes paid by railroads are the corporate income tax and the fuel tax for diesel locomotives. Ironically, the fuel taxes paid by the railroads for their locomotives go to support the highway system.

The property taxes are paid to states, counties and localities, and those can be nasty. I don't know if the federales have the authority to rescind state, county and local taxes.

Of course, no highway pays property taxes, which only adds to the tilted playing field.

45 posted on 12/18/2001 1:05:38 PM PST by Publius
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To: Rodney King
There is no reason why non-fliers should subsidize fliers, particularly since fliers are on average wealthier than non-fliers.

That was true until flying became cheap due to the budget airlines. Today everybody but the poorest fly.

46 posted on 12/18/2001 1:07:16 PM PST by Publius
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To: Alberta's Child
Actually, the Midwest gets a poorer return on tax dollars than the New England and Mid-Atlantic states. So, those folks aren't shouldering the weight of the world, and they are not solely responsible for everything that gets done elsewhere.

Back to the argument of Amtrak...using this guy's whining logic, we should bust loose with a nationwide system of horse paths and bike paths. Dude, there's a reason why Amtrak cannot be self-sustaining, and it ain't because the government doesn't kick in enough cash...it's because nobody wants to ride a damned train. It takes you forever to get anywhere. Ergo, simply because it is a transportation alternative doesn't make it viable.

Let's build a coast-to-coast canal system while we're at it so all of the raft-riders can get around.

47 posted on 12/18/2001 1:07:38 PM PST by cincinnati_Steve
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To: Alberta's Child
The railroad industry has nothing to complain about, since they were one of the earliest beneficiaries of government largesse in the transportation industry. The government has simply decided to subsidize someone else these days.

Correct. And the thrust of the author's argument is that the government needs to rethink its subsidization priorities. It's gone too far in one direction, and balanced transportation is the key.

48 posted on 12/18/2001 1:09:38 PM PST by Publius
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To: cincinnati_Steve
The author's point goes far beyond Amtrak. No form of intercity transportation has ever been self-sustaining in the long run. Canals and horse paths do not fit into this at all.
49 posted on 12/18/2001 1:11:31 PM PST by Publius
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To: Alberta's Child
Gas tax revenues are generally only used for capital projects, not operating expenses. The cost of plowing or resurfacing a road is normally paid out of general tax revenues.

Don't know about that one way or the other, but I can absolutely tell you that AMtrak is subsidied by the gasoline tax. Probably take some digging to find the proof, if needed.

50 posted on 12/18/2001 1:12:56 PM PST by cincinnati_Steve
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To: cincinnati_Steve
Actually, the Midwest gets a poorer return on tax dollars than the New England and Mid-Atlantic states.

This may depend on how you compute the actual "return" for any given state, but my understanding is that Connecticut gets the least money from the U.S. government for every dollar it pays in taxes (something like $0.78), followed by New Jersey and New York.

The long-range trips that you describe are only part of the issue here. What makes the U.S. odd in terms of its transportation system is that nobody else in the world would even consider flying between two points as close together as New York and Washington, D.C. This is the kind of trip where even a regular train can compete with an airliner, and implementing high-speed service would extend the competitive range of that "short" trip even further (say, New York to Cleveland).

51 posted on 12/18/2001 1:14:55 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Publius
. Ironically, the fuel taxes paid by the railroads for their locomotives go to support the highway system.

Locomotive diesel isn't subject the fuel tax that truck diesel is...neither is diesel fuel for tractors on farms, or diesel a water pump, or any other use that doesn't involve "the road".

52 posted on 12/18/2001 1:17:09 PM PST by cincinnati_Steve
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To: Alberta's Child
Actually, they only get $0.66 back from each dollar...go here for interesting tax stats. Pages 42-43 have the pertinent data. To be honest, train riding doesn't appeal to me. I'd rather be able to stop, stretch, detour to see stuff, etc.
53 posted on 12/18/2001 1:21:54 PM PST by cincinnati_Steve
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To: caddie
I am saying that there are things that the Federal government ought to provide for, that no private citizen or corporation can supply, provided that it is of significant value to the country's welfare and security. And I would maintain that a first-class rail system is exactly that.

Well, assuming that the sentiment is fine, why do you think that the government is capable of producing a first class rail system? Isn't that what they are doing now? What would you do, double Amtrak's budget?

The government is incapable of providing a first class system because the government is incapable of providing anything efficiently. I used to take the Metroliner from NY to DC three times per month. Orginally, I took the club car. Then, one time it was full and I sat in the cafe car. Turns out that the food in the cafe car was better than the food in the club car, and the cafe car had like 6 beers to choose from while the club car only had two. Well, after that Amtrak lost my roughly $50 each way for the club car because they were stupid and incompetant like all government workers are.

On that same train, they were too stupid to have the person in the cafe car from the last shift put the beers on ice for the next shift. I could not get a cold beer until 30 minutes in to the ride. So, I would buy two beers at the station in bring them on the train with me. More lost revenue because the government does not have the incentive to manage anything properly. If you want a first class rail system, government is not the place to look.

54 posted on 12/18/2001 1:22:34 PM PST by Rodney King
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To: Rodney King
Building a first class rail system has nothing to do with Amtrak. They can abolish it for all I care. The idea is to use federal help to build first class rail infrastructure. Once that is done, American ingenuity in the private sector can take care of passenger rail.
55 posted on 12/18/2001 1:24:44 PM PST by Publius
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To: Alberta's Child
What makes the U.S. odd in terms of its transportation system is that nobody else in the world would even consider flying between two points as close together as New York and Washington, D.C. This is the kind of trip where even a regular train can compete with an airliner, and implementing high-speed service would extend the competitive range of that "short" trip even further (say, New York to Cleveland).

Yes, the problem is the government. After 9/11, any private railroad could have easily floated bonds to finance high speed tracks and enignes to serve the entire Northeast, and eventually the Ohio area. Meanwhile, Amtrak has just sat on their lazy asses.

56 posted on 12/18/2001 1:25:31 PM PST by Rodney King
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To: cincinnati_Steve
After the first fuel crunch (1973-74), the Highway Trust Fund, home of federal gasoline taxes, was breached to permit federal gas tax money to go to rail. And yes, Amtrak gets a piece of that.
57 posted on 12/18/2001 1:26:17 PM PST by Publius
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To: Rodney King
See #38. There are very few "private" passenger railroads these days, and running passenger service on freight alignments is becoming less feasible as time goes on.
58 posted on 12/18/2001 1:29:04 PM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Rodney King
Amtrak did not sit on its lazy ass. It cannot float bonds unless the government authorizes it.

There are now two High Speed Rail Initiative bills before Congress. One gives $12 billion to Amtrak for bonds, the other gives the money to the states.

The private railroads aren't in the position to issue bonds for a total rebuild. Wall Street is already punishing some of them for thinking long range and not just in a 4 quarter timeframe.

59 posted on 12/18/2001 1:29:26 PM PST by Publius
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To: Publius
This one really deserves a barf alert. The author's thesis boils down to "I like passenger trains so you need to pay for them."

Socialism, pure and simple. Mobocracy at work.

60 posted on 12/18/2001 2:15:30 PM PST by jimt
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