Rail: The Case for "Interstate II"

Washington (DC) Highway Transportation Fraternity | May 1999 | Gil Carmichael

[balrog666]

As for people living like "rats in a warren," I have no idea what you're talking about.

Oh, I was referring to the "modern" urban growth programs that restrict development through regional zoning laws which require high density, small-size housing, prohibit switching land from agricultural or industrial use to housing, discriminate against cars and new roads, mandate access to light rail service where available, etc. as explemplified by Portland, Oregon's Metro Planning Program.

[Publius]

These railroads became profitable after 1980 because one of the benefits of deregulation was that these railroads could eliminate their passenger service!

But the railroads eliminated their passenger service in 1971, handing it to the fedgov via Amtrak. The Staggers Act of 1980 permitted the railroads to run their trains and set their own rates without ICC interference, and that was what made the difference.

[cicero's_son]

Whenever I talk with a real "car fanatic," I feel like I'm pissing in the wind. They admit no failures in this particular piece of technology.

If you honestly think that cars are flawless, that America's small towns haven't suffered in any way from sprawl and stip-mallization, and that American economic development necessitated mass urbanization of the precise form we see today, what can I say?

[Alberta's Child]

It is now a blighted wasteland of abandoned strip malls and empty parking lots.

And probably a bankrupt developer, too. At least the land can be redeveloped with a better use in place -- imagine if there was a closed-down oil refinery there instead.

It's interesting to note that farmland is always prized by developers because it is the most economical for building. The ground is relatively flat, and the trees have already been cleared. It's almost as if the "natural" progression of development is from farmland to suburb.

I wish I could be more optimistic, but developers are going to keep building dull suburbs until the day people decide they don't want to live and shop there.

[balrog666]

Detroit did not evolve into a car city naturally.

What? Was it un-natural? Supernatural? Maybe a conspiracy?

[TopDog2]

It wasn't METRA. My original contention still stands. No one in their right mind is going to want to spend time in a cramped seat (assuming they can get a seat), rubbing elbows with complete strangers that smell bad. I hate to fly. Flying is fine, but the conditions make it miserable. Since the people that developed the airlines have the same mindset as those that are trying to foist yet another government entity on the taxpayer, I can't see how riding a train will be any less miserable than flying.

[Publius]

BREAK THE UNIONS!
END OUR PREDATORY SYSTEM OF TAXATION!
FREE ENTERPRISE WILL RISE AGAIN!

It's too big for a bumper sticker but just the right size for a billboard.

[cicero's_son]

"Oh, I was referring to the "modern" urban growth programs that restrict development through regional zoning laws which require high density, small-size housing, prohibit switching land....."

Great. So long as we're clear that what you were saying had nothing whatsoever to do with the history of America's small towns.

[Alberta's Child]

Increasing capacity on a commuter rail line is "building long", i.e., more and longer trains.

Tell that to people commuting to midtown Manhattan on the Northeast Corridor (the old Pennsy system). They run those damned trains three minutes apart, the trains are packed to the roof, and what used to be a 12-minute ride between Newark and New York now takes 20+ minutes at an average speed of about 30 miles per hour.

They need another cross-Hudson tunnel there, but the cost of building it would probably be the same as the cost of building six lanes of interstate highway from New York to Pittsburgh.

[Phantom Lord]

the trucks will run you right off the road.)

Talk about making generalizations!

[Publius]

According to the federal court system, it was in fact a conspiracy, which was why the courts fined National City Lines for anti-trust violations. (The fine was a paltry $3000.)

So Detroit's conversion to a "car town" had a little help from GM, Mack, Firestone, Union Oil and Phillips Petroleum. Just another day in the American business world. And I'm saying that without sarcasm.

[Alberta's Child]

If you like driving across the country, try doing it in Canada. There's no such thing as an "interstate" -- the Trans-Canada Highway runs right through every town along the way, with traffic lights and all. That's the best way to REALLY "see" the country!

[cicero's_son]

"I wish I could be more optimistic, but developers are going to keep building dull suburbs until the day people decide they don't want to live and shop there."

And that will never happen, because at the end of the day, most people really don't give a s**t and the developers know it. Same thing with car designers. I'm just a nostalgic curmudgeon, I guess.

More seriously, your comment above is one reason I'm so enthusiastic about the New Urbanist program. For all of its flaws, I think that it does produce more livable cities. If more developers sign on (and--knock on wood--so far more are signing on every year), the public may actually come to realize that it does have a choice.

[Publius]

I can't see how riding a train will be any less miserable than flying.

I've done both. After flying, I'm miserable. After a train ride in a wide seat, I feel refreshed. After taking a Cascades train from Seattle to Portland, I'll never fly or drive that route again.

[balrog666]

Great. So long as we're clear that what you were saying had nothing whatsoever to do with the history of America's small towns.

Nope, I love small towns. It's just that all too often new railways have been sold to the taxpayer as part of urban zoning-controlled growth areas, in effect as a return ticket to the tenement style living of the inner cities of the 1890's-1950's, i.e. pre-suburbs. Yecch!

[Phantom Lord]

Prospect A) Drive to a parking lot and get on a bus to go to the train or get right on the train. Take train to stop near destination. Get on another bus and take it close to final destination. Walk to final destination. Then do it all over again backwards to get home. Talk about easy, convienent, and efficient. The 3 things big train supporters claim trains are, and clearly they are not.

Prospect B) Get in car, drive to work.

I will take B.

Now, if I lived in NYC i probably would not even own a car. You dont need one. But when you dont live in a big city you do need one.

[Alberta's Child]

My apologies -- I thought Conrail ran passenger service (commuter trains, in particular) in parts of the Northeast until 1983. That was the year NJ TRANSIT was created, and I thought they basically took over Conrail's operations.

[discostu]

Who said anything about cars being flawless?! I've got an interesting idea. How about instead of categorizing me based on one or two sentences you actually read what I wrote. Cars have problems, everybody knows that, but trains aren't the answer. If trains were the answer to the problems of cars we would never have invented cars in the first place.

Oh, and if you're going to try to tell me something I know for a fact because I've lived in and near small town America is utter BS about how the rails made small towns and the car is destroying them, then yes you are pissing in the wind. That's what happens when you're full of it and trying to sell misconceptions as gospel. You can order a book from the AZ Tourism info people that shows you how to get to various ghost town scatter through out AZ. If you get that book and maybe take a couple of those trips you'll find something very quickly: the road goes to these places but in most cases the rail doesn't. Keep that in mind when trying to blame all of the evils of the world on the car, somethings just aren't the car's fault.

[Phantom Lord]

Wrong! Private enterprise made money in mass transportation until the Depression.

Private enterprise made a lot of money producing buggys and buggy whips too. Not much of a market for those today though.

[cicero's_son]

So are you a fan of current zoning laws, as mandated by the federal government? The ones that have shaped cities like Detroit, San Jose, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix?