Rail: The Case for "Interstate II"

Washington (DC) Highway Transportation Fraternity | May 1999 | Gil Carmichael

[Phantom Lord]

Anytime I hear the train/light rail/commuter debate all I can think of is The Simpsons "monorail" episode.

[balrog666]

your comment above is one reason I'm so enthusiastic about the New Urbanist program. For all of its flaws, I think that it does produce more livable cities.

A-ha, you are one of those New Urbanist nuts! We'll just have to disagree on that. It has too many flaws and first among them is forcing people to give up choices in how and where to live.

[Publius]

Tell that to people commuting to midtown Manhattan on the Northeast Corridor (the old Pennsy system). They run those damned trains three minutes apart, the trains are packed to the roof, and what used to be a 12-minute ride between Newark and New York now takes 20+ minutes at an average speed of about 30 miles per hour.

At Newark, the 4-track Northeast Corridor shrinks to 2 tracks for the 2 single-track tunnels under the Hudson, built in 1910. Add to that the Morris & Essex trains that now go to Penn Station thanks to the completion of Kearny switch in 1996. They are planning to build a third tunnel under the Hudson if the fedgov can come up with the funds. (Amtrak owns the tunnels and rail line, having inherited them from the bankrupt Penn Central.)

Longer platforms, longer and more frequent trains -- and the extra tracks needed will fix that problem.

[discostu]

Yeah really. Truckers are nice people. Having had a freeway accident, and having had a few trucks stop to make sure everybody was OK, and they CBd 911 even before finding out if we were (we were) I got nothing bad to say about trucks, even when I'm stuck behind them on a steep grade. Sure the vehicles can be a pain in the butt sometimes, but most of the time when there's an issue between a car and a truck it's because the driver of the car is an idiot. Didn't make sure they could see the driver in the mirrors (if you can't see the driver he can't see you) or they tried to jump in front of one like it was a car (trucks don't slow down good, they're heavy), or they didn't respect what the weather could do to the trailer.

[Publius]

Talk about making generalizations!

That's not a generalization. I've driven I-5 between Seattle and Portland, and the trucks scare the living hell out of me, especially when the 6-lane stretches condense to 4 lanes.

[Phantom Lord]

I would say that the car did MORE for the small town than any negative impact that it has had on them. Especially since until the advent of the car and its becoming owned by the masses, industrial centers were BIG CITIES. Small towns were exactly that. Small. They produced very little outside of Ag products. Some did have little industrial plants, but not big ones.

[TopDog2]

I'm glad you had a good "train experience." Mine have not been good. No "wide seats" around here on trains.

I do have some questions for you though. What is the roundtrip fare between Portland and Seattle on that train? How does that compare with the (approximately) $22.50 (assuming 20 mpg for the 360 mile roundtrip at $1.25/gallon)? How about adding the cost of a taxi or bus (to get one from the train station to one's final destination)? Which is cheaper for the consumer?

[Alberta's Child]

Do yourself a favor and visit Calgary, Alberta one of these days. Take a look at the MacKenzie Towne Centre way down in the southeastern corner of the suburbs where the ranch country begins. It's a mix of detached, townhouse, and condo residential units, with a nice little town center that looks like something out of a western movie -- a "main street" with raised crosswalks, stores fronting right onto the sidewalk, a green median in the middle, and with angled parking along both sides. Ornate alleyways between some of the stores connect the main street to additional parking areas on the back sides of the buildings.

Adjacent to the town center on one side are some retail land uses that are more "auto-intensive" (supermarket, banks, gas station). Probably 50% of the residential units are within walking distance of the town center.

I think the development won some kind of award from an urban planning group as the best design in North America a couple of years ago.

[cicero's_son]

I've got an idea: why don't you learn to read?

From my post #147 above: "Cars and roads are not good or evil. Neither are trains."

From yours #178: "Keep that in mind when trying to blame all of the evils of the world on the car."

Was I not clear enough when I said that "cars...are not evil" that I don't, in fact, blame all of the evils of the world on the car?

The fact that you explode in a rage over an innocuous post about what most people would consider a fairly unemotional topic only proves your fanaticism. Get a grip.

[Phantom Lord]

And exactly how many times have you actually been "driven off the road" by them. How many accidents with them have you had?

[cicero's_son]

I'd love to! It sounds great.

Others that have won awards: Harbor Town (Memphis, Tenn.), Kentlands, Maryland; I'On, South Carolina; and CityPlace (West Palm Beach).

[Publius]

My apologies -- I thought Conrail ran passenger service (commuter trains, in particular) in parts of the Northeast until 1983. That was the year NJ TRANSIT was created, and I thought they basically took over Conrail's operations.

Amtrak took over passenger operations after the demise of the Penn Central. Conrail took over freight operations. New Jersey Transit was created in 1976 but did not come into its own until Gov. Kean rationalized it in the Eighties, and then it inherited the Trenton-New York and Bay Head-New York operations from Amtrak. It inherited the Morris & Essex from the Erie-Lackawanna, and it inherited the Raritan Valley from the Jersey Central. A number of years ago it inherited the Philadelphia-Atlantic City service from Amtrak.

[cicero's_son]

And you don't think that current zoning laws force people to give up choices?

Honestly, I get the feeling that some conservatives think the New Urbanists invented zoning laws.

[Alberta's Child]

Excellent summary of the issues along the Northeast Corridor. I'm willing to bet they will never build that tunnel because getting more commuters into New York doesn't do any good if the subways and streets are already saturated.

By the time any new tunnels are built under the Hudson I'll bet many employers in New York will already have moved to New Jersey anyway.

[balrog666]

So are you a fan of current zoning laws, as mandated by the federal government? The ones that have shaped cities like Detroit, San Jose, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix?

Now what the hell are you talking about? Detroit was founded 300 years ago. It didn’t join the union until the 1830’s. "Detroit" is only the current name of a conglomeration of smaller towns, districts, and regions. Cities have historically been shaped by natural boundaries, zoning laws, competing cities, and people's desires to live and build where they wish. What's your point?

[HardStarboard]

>>>Only liberals...<<<

You obviously don't know squat about the pleasures of riding on a fine, high-speed, modern railway. You can't if you haven't been out of this country to Europe or Japan.

We need to have high-speed rail up and down both coasts and two major lines across the US - one upper tier of states and one mid and lower tier. Our current "highspeed" rail is a joke - frieght takes priority while passenger trains sit on the siding until the track is clear. We need specialized roadbeds for true hi-speed rail.

Those of you who believe in rail should support Carmichael - whoever he is?? How do you get ahold of him - I want to find out how to back his approach. Anyone?

This is long overdue -

[Publius]

The one-way fare from Portland to Seattle is about $22 if you buy the ticket in advance and stay away from weekend travel, when the trains jam up. Buying tickets at the last minute and traveling on weekends brings a higher price. It's similar to the airlines' version of congestion pricing.

[discostu]

Actually I've always wanted to ride the full length of the Pacific Coast Highway, I've done most of the contiguous US stretch and it's great fun. I've been told that distance driving in Canada is pretty tough, samething happens here if you hit the Routes instead of the Interstate. It can be cool though. Probably the worst thing I had happen when running the small route cross country drive was winding up in the middle of nowhere Texas (that might actually have been the name of the town) at 4 am in desperate need of gas with not a single business open... not even a motel. Crashed in the car for a couple hours got gas and beef jerky (damn good beef jerky I might add, of course this town and 10 miles around it reaked of cow crap, it was beef country) and drove on. When you stick to the interstates you're in 24 hour land, you can always find gas.

[Publius]

Do a search on the Amtrak Reform Council, and you'll find their website. The site give's Carmichael's e-mail address.

[cicero's_son]

"What's your point?"

Just that it's one set of zoning laws or another. It's not like we're living under some laissez-faire regime where developers and capitalists can build anything, anywhere. Personally, I prefer the New Urbanist mixed use code. I assume you don't.

An as for Detroit, I said "shaped" not "founded." I'd argue that Detroit is more shaped by developments over the last 40 years than by anyting that happened in the previous 260.