Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Rail: The Case for "Interstate II"
Washington (DC) Highway Transportation Fraternity | May 1999 | Gil Carmichael

Posted on 12/20/2001 8:42:55 AM PST by Publius

People identify me with railroad issues and advocacy. They forget that I came out of the highway lobby. As late as 1987 I was active in promoting a $1.6 billion, 1077-mile, 4-lane highway development program for my home state of Mississippi. During my business career I have owned five auto dealerships and an air charter service. My first involvement at the federal level was in highway safety. President Nixon named me to the National Highway Safety Advisory Committee. In 1975 President Ford appointed me to the National Transportation Policy Study Commission which was chaired by Bud Shuster. I led the subcommittee on advanced technology.

I went into this process a strong believer in highway transportation. After three years I was transformed into a believer in inter-modal transportation. Those sentiments were confirmed by my later work as Federal Railroad Administrator under President Bush, which also brought me into contact with leaders in aviation and transit. My comments reflect nearly thirty years of hands-on experience.

The Interstate Highway Program

Forty years ago America embarked upon the Interstate Highway System. We built 46,000 miles of multi-lane routes without stoplights or grade crossings. It was a grand achievement. But if you think about it, the interstate system was not designed for high-speed travel. In most states the top speed limits are only five miles an hour above those posted on the conventional numbered roadways of the 1950’s. The great benefit of the interstates was that we increased capacity by a large factor, and avoided the stoplights, traffic jams, and slow-downs that held average speeds to 50 miles an hour or less.

The interstate system had dramatic impacts upon mobility, economic growth and transportation efficiency. But its development created problems that we did not consider important at that time. Some urban areas experienced economic growth, which was spurred by their access to modern highway corridors. Others confronted more disruptive consequences. Urban interstates also became commuter routes, which fragmented downtowns and helped spread residential and commercial development to widely scattered suburbs. Many city centers were devastated, and many small towns withered as the new routes chose green-field rights-of-way.

Few people worried about air pollution in the 1950’s. In one respect our air had become cleaner because Americans of that era had switched from coal furnaces and coal-fired industrial boilers to cleaner units which used natural gas or electricity. Meanwhile, our modern highways stimulated the explosion of personal transportation by automobile, instead of public transportation by transit or rail. By the 1970’s, vehicle emissions represented the primary source of urban pollutants.

For a time, Detroit built smaller cars, but the growth in overall numbers of trucks and automobiles soon offset the pollution savings. Local governments chose to pursue industrial polluters instead of confronting the tricky problem of restricting autos and trucks. The result was to drive manufacturing out of urban counties.

Today, commuters coming to the city to work in service industries pass outbound commuters headed for factories, which have relocated to the urban fringe. City governments are losing the battle against air pollution, and have resorted to such strategies as urging residents not to run their lawn mowers on high-ozone days or avoid fueling their autos until after dark. Yet most large cities will flunk the new EPA air-quality standards.

Interstates are regarded as safer than conventional highways, but higher vehicle counts, rush-hour traffic jams, and rising driver frustration are degrading the safety performance. Highway fatalities remain at an unacceptable 40,000+ per year. We would not tolerate this situation in air or rail service.

The Problem of Congestion and "Externalities"

Only in recent years have transportation engineers and analysts begun to focus on these impacts. They commonly are referred to as "externalities" -- the costs of pollution, energy waste, land disruption, accidents and time wasted in traffic jams. These costs sometimes are hidden, but they are real. More to the point, highway user fees do not cover them. A study conducted for the American Trucking Association concluded that the trucking industry alone was responsible for $30 billion in annual costs which exceed the user fees it pays. Those costs have been transferred to the general taxpayer and to the consumer in the form of higher prices. And that's only part of the true cost of these external impacts.

Right now, our highway and airway-based passenger system is ailing. Highway and airport gridlock is getting worse, and we have found that we cannot afford to build our way out of this gridlock. Hundred-million-dollar interchanges only move traffic jams to new locations. Highway engineers now recognize in most cases that adding lanes to urban interstates won't solve the problem. Congestion is worse. Rush hour in Chicago now covers eight hours per day. Average speeds in big-city downtowns are slower than they were 100 years ago, and the true cost of operating a new automobile is in the 40-cents-a-mile range and rising. It's currently about $6,000 a year. That works out to 500 after-tax dollars per month to move you an average of 1,200 miles a month. That's pretty expensive to move your body in your car 15,000 miles a year.

Aviation's ability to expand is on a par with the problem of legroom in its passenger seats. The cabin can be reconfigured to add an inch or two, but that's about all. Load factors are at record levels. Passengers are furious over delays and overcrowding. With Herculean effort we are able to add an airport like Denver International once every 20 years. Alternatives such as VTOL aircraft have stalled out. Airport managers' visions now are limited to their existing property boundaries. A few airport commissions, like those in New Orleans and Miami, are trying to bring high-speed rail to their terminal escalators, but most airports are not.

It has become clear that we cannot solve our transportation needs of the 21st Century just by adding ever-more-costly highway lanes. This approach simply is not sustainable. When I use the term "sustainable", I intend it to mean a system that we can afford to build, and a system whose adverse impacts upon safety, land use, energy consumption and air quality are held to acceptable limits.

The Global, High-Speed Inter-modal System

As I thought about how to overcome these challenges, I was drawn to our recent experience in inter-modal transportation. What has taken place during the past 20 years is nothing short of revolutionary. Inter-modal transportation has become the global standard for moving freight -- using a system, which is sharply focused on speed, safety, reliable scheduling and economic efficiency. Today, that network emphasizes moving freight in North America and passengers in Europe and Asia. It is beginning to include passenger service in the United States.

The global high-speed inter-modal freight system builds on the strengths of each mode that have become partners in offering service. It also makes use of the versatility of the cargo container. Cargo ships and airplanes span the oceans. The freight railroad is the high-speed, long-distance transportation artery on the land. The truck provides local feeder service at origins and destinations. Cargo airplanes deliver high-value specialized freight. This system works -- but it urgently needs dramatic improvements to its land component in order to handle growing volumes of containers delivered by ship and airplane.

Modern, high-efficiency, high-capacity inter-modal terminals are key to the system, providing almost seamless interchange. Secondary rail and highway routes support the inter-modal system and connect cities, rural regions and individual freight customers to the main-line corridors. Today, a double-stack train leaving a coastal port can replace 280 trucks, run at speeds up to 90 miles an hour on the western railroads and afford as much as nine times the fuel efficiency of container transport by highway. Overall, the operational and economic efficiency of freight's inter-modal network conserves fuel, reduces other environmental impacts and is significantly safer. It represents the most economically and environmentally "sustainable" approach to transportation services.

Meanwhile, this new inter-modal science is redrawing the railroad map of North America, linking the populations and economies of the United States, Canada, and Mexico in a true "North American Rail System." Our continental network serves 90 states and provinces with 240,000 miles of routes and almost 400 million people. Most of its main lines are in excellent shape.

Over $60 billion in private funds has been spent for upgrading to heavy-duty welded rail. Another key point is this -- customers are driving the inter-modal freight network. North American customers suffer when it comes to moving people. Passengers take what the modes have to offer, shuffle between terminals, wait at the curb for the hourly bus downtown, or head for the latest addition to the airport parking garage, where we fork over above-market rates for the "privilege" of being an airline customer. Or we find ourselves at the mercy of higher rental car prices.

One could make the case that the worst defect of our passenger transportation system is the limited number of choices it offers. Residents of cities under 100,000 population often have only one practical option for inter-city travel -- the private automobile. Where bus and Amtrak service exist, the frequencies often are insufficient to meet the customer's needs. Airlines have retreated from short-haul markets. Where air service remains, the fare levels have driven people back to their automobiles.

It's Time for "Interstate II”

It seems to me that our success in freight inter-modal points the way to the most promising strategy for transportation improvements in the years ahead. I call it "Interstate II." It is a new vision of truly high-speed inter-city travel that is based upon steel, not pavement. The concept is not radical. It combines the proven efficiency of rail transportation with the strengths of the inter-modal system. Interstate II can take advantage of rights-of-way that already exist -- both rail and highways.

Interstate II already is under way. The New York-Washington Northeast Corridor has been in place since the 1970’s. [Publius note: Actually since 1910.] High-speed trains will serve Boston later this year. Turbo-trains now operate on the Empire Corridor in New York State. Washington, Oregon and British Columbia are developing a high-speed route in the Pacific Northwest. Eight years ago Congress authorized five new high-speed rail corridors. Today, with the TEA-21 Act, thirteen have been approved for development. When Congress voted $2.3 billion in capital funds for Amtrak, it sent a message that inter-city rail passenger service is here to stay. It is interesting to note that Amtrak's package express business is booming, because express companies cannot expand if they are limited to clogged highways. Interstate II will attract mail and package express business away from highways and airways, adding to the new system's revenues, and helping to share the increased traffic loads that the other modes confront.

The evolution of Interstate II reminds me of the conditions that prevailed during the decade prior to our construction of the first interstate routes. The old two-lane roads were not adequate for traffic volumes. Several states took the lead in building toll roads -- Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kansas and Oklahoma. Important segments of "Interstate I" already were in operation before Congress voted to launch that project.

The same thing is happening in the 1990’s. These state and regional initiatives represent the beginning of a network of high-speed rail lines. Many of them will parallel interstate highways. During the first quarter of the 21st Century, I believe that we can build about 20,000 miles of corridors capable of running trains at 90 to 150 miles per hour. As much as another 10,000 miles of high-quality conventional rail routings will augment that network.

Often, we will be able to use the same right of way that freight railroad now occupy, if we deal with a number of key issues, including grade separation and liability. An important element of Interstate II is the requirement to eliminate at-grade highway-rail crossings. Many of them can be closed, because they are unnecessary. Others will require separation. The remainder can be fitted with high-tech crossing devices. We cannot have efficient rail corridors, conventional or high-speed, if trains encounter grade crossings every mile in the country and every block in town. Some people will shy away from the crossing-closure issue as too controversial. But think back to the 1950’s. We closed tens of thousands of road intersections when the Interstate highways were built.

For Interstate II to function properly, we also must create terminals to transfer passengers and freight among modes and routes. Fast, modern and highly efficient inter-modal terminals and yards are essential to freight's inter-modal system, providing "seamless" service. Get off an airplane at Dulles or Denver airports and you are reminded that seamless service hasn’t arrived. The seams are ripped apart just on the other side of the baggage claim.

Another important element of Interstate II will be the city center terminal. The city center terminal serves the inter-modal passenger network. It also serves cities both large and small and helps to revitalize the downtown. These facilities should be developed by local governments, just as they built and financed airports. City center terminals can be hubs for people and retailing. In larger cities they can provide a financial contribution to the overall corridor development project.

Amtrak will have a key role in the inter-city passenger component of Interstate II. But we need to start thinking about Amtrak in a more realistic context. Amtrak should be in the business of moving people inter-modally, in partnership with inter-city bus companies and local transit, but not owning track or terminals. Amtrak should operate and be treated like an airline. Airlines don't build airports. They don't carry those debt costs on their books. If airlines had been compelled to finance airports, they would not have had the capability to undertake the remarkable expansion of fleets and service that has occurred during the past forty years. What's fair for airlines ought to be fair for Amtrak, which today is burdened with aging station facilities that in many cases are an embarrassment, which discourages use.

Interstate II is Affordable

I also favor Interstate II because it represents the option we can afford.

For the equivalent of two cents on the motor fuel tax, one penny at the federal level and a second penny from the states, America could have within twenty years' time a network of high-speed rail corridors that approaches the scale of the Interstate Highway system. That commitment of fuel tax dollars would offer a powerful incentive to additional private investment as well. States and cities should be partners in the process, bringing additional revenues to the table. Again, we are talking about the equivalent of one cent on each state's motor fuel tax. Some people will argue that motor fuel taxes should only go to highway projects. But highway construction is not solving the gridlock problem. More important, the existing level of highway user fees doesn't even come close to covering the costs that highway transportation now inflicts upon our economy and society. More to the point, it is not building the system we need, one that captures the safety and capacity of the 21st Century inter-modal passenger and freight network. Cities, towns, counties and citizens already are paying for that funding gap in many indirect ways. Law enforcement costs. Emergency services costs. Land lost to highway rights-of-way that goes off the tax rolls. Pollution rules that drive industrial jobs out of urban counties despite the fact that most of the emissions are highway-related.

Aside from the obvious benefits from Interstate II, I favor it because there are no alternatives. If trends of the 1980’s and 1990’s persist into the new century -- and there is no reason to believe that they will not -- conventional solutions based upon individual modes simply cannot cope with the growth. Does anyone here seriously believe that we can double the capacity of our urban highway system within the next 15 years? The price tag for just a 10 percent increase would be staggering. And does anyone think that we will add eight or nine airports on the scale of Denver International? I would be surprised if we completed even one of them.

We are long overdue in coming to grips with the huge costs of trying to make the highways and airways solve all of our transportation needs, especially since there are efficient alternatives. It is our job to convince the American people and their opinion leaders that Interstate II is possible and is the obvious solution to our mobility needs for a new century. Rail corridors will prove to be cheaper than hundred-million-dollar interchanges that only relocate traffic jams. They will be safer than 43,000 deaths per year on America’s roadways.

This new ethical inter-modal transportation system will conserve fuel, reduce pollution and be less disruptive in using land. And just as America's toll roads used private money to finance construction, Interstate II can attract major private investment cost sharing. Private money can be applied to construction, operations, station development and equipment -- especially modern passenger, mail-and-express train-sets.

How many times have you heard people ask, "Why can't we have trains like those in Europe?" The answer is, We can. It's a question of priorities, strategy, partnerships, leadership and policy. We need to explain to the people of America that they can have a customer-driven passenger system. They can have choice within that system, and it doesn't have to cost 40 cents a mile to get anywhere. Americans also can obtain an even more efficient, low-cost freight and express network that will reap even more benefits through its inter-modal design. Americans can have interstates of steel for less cost than interstates of concrete and asphalt. And Interstate II will provide plenty of work for the traditional highway-builders.

Building this very safe, 20,000-mile, grade-separated, high-speed inter-city rail network is the key to the quality of transportation services during the next century. The money is there to do the job. The "road gang's" next goal should be to build it. It is up to you. I believe that the concept makes sense. I hope that you will agree.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220 ... 241-242 next last
To: discostu
Anytime I hear the train/light rail/commuter debate all I can think of is The Simpsons "monorail" episode.
181 posted on 12/20/2001 12:57:15 PM PST by Phantom Lord
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 160 | View Replies]

To: cicero's_son
your comment above is one reason I'm so enthusiastic about the New Urbanist program. For all of its flaws, I think that it does produce more livable cities.

A-ha, you are one of those New Urbanist nuts! We'll just have to disagree on that. It has too many flaws and first among them is forcing people to give up choices in how and where to live.
182 posted on 12/20/2001 12:58:26 PM PST by balrog666
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
Tell that to people commuting to midtown Manhattan on the Northeast Corridor (the old Pennsy system). They run those damned trains three minutes apart, the trains are packed to the roof, and what used to be a 12-minute ride between Newark and New York now takes 20+ minutes at an average speed of about 30 miles per hour.

At Newark, the 4-track Northeast Corridor shrinks to 2 tracks for the 2 single-track tunnels under the Hudson, built in 1910. Add to that the Morris & Essex trains that now go to Penn Station thanks to the completion of Kearny switch in 1996. They are planning to build a third tunnel under the Hudson if the fedgov can come up with the funds. (Amtrak owns the tunnels and rail line, having inherited them from the bankrupt Penn Central.)

Longer platforms, longer and more frequent trains -- and the extra tracks needed will fix that problem.

183 posted on 12/20/2001 12:58:59 PM PST by Publius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 169 | View Replies]

To: Phantom Lord
Yeah really. Truckers are nice people. Having had a freeway accident, and having had a few trucks stop to make sure everybody was OK, and they CBd 911 even before finding out if we were (we were) I got nothing bad to say about trucks, even when I'm stuck behind them on a steep grade. Sure the vehicles can be a pain in the butt sometimes, but most of the time when there's an issue between a car and a truck it's because the driver of the car is an idiot. Didn't make sure they could see the driver in the mirrors (if you can't see the driver he can't see you) or they tried to jump in front of one like it was a car (trucks don't slow down good, they're heavy), or they didn't respect what the weather could do to the trailer.
184 posted on 12/20/2001 1:00:00 PM PST by discostu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 170 | View Replies]

To: Phantom Lord
Talk about making generalizations!

That's not a generalization. I've driven I-5 between Seattle and Portland, and the trucks scare the living hell out of me, especially when the 6-lane stretches condense to 4 lanes.

185 posted on 12/20/2001 1:00:31 PM PST by Publius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 170 | View Replies]

To: cicero's_son
I would say that the car did MORE for the small town than any negative impact that it has had on them. Especially since until the advent of the car and its becoming owned by the masses, industrial centers were BIG CITIES. Small towns were exactly that. Small. They produced very little outside of Ag products. Some did have little industrial plants, but not big ones.
186 posted on 12/20/2001 1:00:33 PM PST by Phantom Lord
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: Publius
I'm glad you had a good "train experience." Mine have not been good. No "wide seats" around here on trains.

I do have some questions for you though. What is the roundtrip fare between Portland and Seattle on that train? How does that compare with the (approximately) $22.50 (assuming 20 mpg for the 360 mile roundtrip at $1.25/gallon)? How about adding the cost of a taxi or bus (to get one from the train station to one's final destination)? Which is cheaper for the consumer?

187 posted on 12/20/2001 1:01:49 PM PST by TopDog2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: cicero's_son
Do yourself a favor and visit Calgary, Alberta one of these days. Take a look at the MacKenzie Towne Centre way down in the southeastern corner of the suburbs where the ranch country begins. It's a mix of detached, townhouse, and condo residential units, with a nice little town center that looks like something out of a western movie -- a "main street" with raised crosswalks, stores fronting right onto the sidewalk, a green median in the middle, and with angled parking along both sides. Ornate alleyways between some of the stores connect the main street to additional parking areas on the back sides of the buildings.

Adjacent to the town center on one side are some retail land uses that are more "auto-intensive" (supermarket, banks, gas station). Probably 50% of the residential units are within walking distance of the town center.

I think the development won some kind of award from an urban planning group as the best design in North America a couple of years ago.

188 posted on 12/20/2001 1:02:38 PM PST by Alberta's Child
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: discostu
I've got an idea: why don't you learn to read?

From my post #147 above: "Cars and roads are not good or evil. Neither are trains."

From yours #178: "Keep that in mind when trying to blame all of the evils of the world on the car."

Was I not clear enough when I said that "cars...are not evil" that I don't, in fact, blame all of the evils of the world on the car?

The fact that you explode in a rage over an innocuous post about what most people would consider a fairly unemotional topic only proves your fanaticism. Get a grip.

189 posted on 12/20/2001 1:03:59 PM PST by cicero's_son
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 178 | View Replies]

To: Publius
And exactly how many times have you actually been "driven off the road" by them. How many accidents with them have you had?
190 posted on 12/20/2001 1:04:32 PM PST by Phantom Lord
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 185 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
I'd love to! It sounds great.

Others that have won awards: Harbor Town (Memphis, Tenn.), Kentlands, Maryland; I'On, South Carolina; and CityPlace (West Palm Beach).

191 posted on 12/20/2001 1:05:56 PM PST by cicero's_son
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 188 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
My apologies -- I thought Conrail ran passenger service (commuter trains, in particular) in parts of the Northeast until 1983. That was the year NJ TRANSIT was created, and I thought they basically took over Conrail's operations.

Amtrak took over passenger operations after the demise of the Penn Central. Conrail took over freight operations. New Jersey Transit was created in 1976 but did not come into its own until Gov. Kean rationalized it in the Eighties, and then it inherited the Trenton-New York and Bay Head-New York operations from Amtrak. It inherited the Morris & Essex from the Erie-Lackawanna, and it inherited the Raritan Valley from the Jersey Central. A number of years ago it inherited the Philadelphia-Atlantic City service from Amtrak.

192 posted on 12/20/2001 1:07:01 PM PST by Publius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 177 | View Replies]

To: balrog666
And you don't think that current zoning laws force people to give up choices?

Honestly, I get the feeling that some conservatives think the New Urbanists invented zoning laws.

193 posted on 12/20/2001 1:08:07 PM PST by cicero's_son
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies]

To: Publius
Excellent summary of the issues along the Northeast Corridor. I'm willing to bet they will never build that tunnel because getting more commuters into New York doesn't do any good if the subways and streets are already saturated.

By the time any new tunnels are built under the Hudson I'll bet many employers in New York will already have moved to New Jersey anyway.

194 posted on 12/20/2001 1:09:12 PM PST by Alberta's Child
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies]

To: cicero's_son
So are you a fan of current zoning laws, as mandated by the federal government? The ones that have shaped cities like Detroit, San Jose, Houston, Dallas, and Phoenix?

Now what the hell are you talking about? Detroit was founded 300 years ago. It didn’t join the union until the 1830’s. "Detroit" is only the current name of a conglomeration of smaller towns, districts, and regions. Cities have historically been shaped by natural boundaries, zoning laws, competing cities, and people's desires to live and build where they wish. What's your point?
195 posted on 12/20/2001 1:10:02 PM PST by balrog666
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: Tijeras_Slim
>>>Only liberals...<<<

You obviously don't know squat about the pleasures of riding on a fine, high-speed, modern railway. You can't if you haven't been out of this country to Europe or Japan.

We need to have high-speed rail up and down both coasts and two major lines across the US - one upper tier of states and one mid and lower tier. Our current "highspeed" rail is a joke - frieght takes priority while passenger trains sit on the siding until the track is clear. We need specialized roadbeds for true hi-speed rail.

Those of you who believe in rail should support Carmichael - whoever he is?? How do you get ahold of him - I want to find out how to back his approach. Anyone?

This is long overdue -

196 posted on 12/20/2001 1:10:25 PM PST by HardStarboard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: TopDog2
The one-way fare from Portland to Seattle is about $22 if you buy the ticket in advance and stay away from weekend travel, when the trains jam up. Buying tickets at the last minute and traveling on weekends brings a higher price. It's similar to the airlines' version of congestion pricing.
197 posted on 12/20/2001 1:10:34 PM PST by Publius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
Actually I've always wanted to ride the full length of the Pacific Coast Highway, I've done most of the contiguous US stretch and it's great fun. I've been told that distance driving in Canada is pretty tough, samething happens here if you hit the Routes instead of the Interstate. It can be cool though. Probably the worst thing I had happen when running the small route cross country drive was winding up in the middle of nowhere Texas (that might actually have been the name of the town) at 4 am in desperate need of gas with not a single business open... not even a motel. Crashed in the car for a couple hours got gas and beef jerky (damn good beef jerky I might add, of course this town and 10 miles around it reaked of cow crap, it was beef country) and drove on. When you stick to the interstates you're in 24 hour land, you can always find gas.
198 posted on 12/20/2001 1:10:40 PM PST by discostu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: HardStarboard
Do a search on the Amtrak Reform Council, and you'll find their website. The site give's Carmichael's e-mail address.
199 posted on 12/20/2001 1:12:58 PM PST by Publius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: balrog666
"What's your point?"

Just that it's one set of zoning laws or another. It's not like we're living under some laissez-faire regime where developers and capitalists can build anything, anywhere. Personally, I prefer the New Urbanist mixed use code. I assume you don't.

An as for Detroit, I said "shaped" not "founded." I'd argue that Detroit is more shaped by developments over the last 40 years than by anyting that happened in the previous 260.

200 posted on 12/20/2001 1:13:04 PM PST by cicero's_son
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220 ... 241-242 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson