Posted on 01/18/2002 1:10:57 PM PST by Notwithstanding
Fair Enough?
But I guess, anybody that was against the old church and was in favor of Vatican II could be defined as an SSPXer. Some however just call those who supported Vatican II, liberals.
The Mass of Pius V, mandated at the Council of Trent, and celebrated until Vatican II, when Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo (The New Order) Mass.
The Tridentine Rite was not mandated at the Council of Trent, which closed in 1563, but in Quo Primum, St. Pius V's papal bull of 1570. The Tridentine Rite was a codification of the existing Roman Rite as it had been celebrated, with few changes, from the 6th century.
There are many SSPXer's here who will tell you that the Novus Ordo is bastardized and illegal, since Pius V said the Tridentine Mass was to be celebrated for "time immemorial." ` They also don't like the Novus Ordo because it's in the vernacular language, the priest faces the people, and a host of other changes from the Tridentine Mass.
Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the sacramental validity of the Novus Ordo Missae. Celebrated with the proper intention, it is a valid Mass. But it is so structurally flawed that it is extremely difficult for a priest to celebrate it with the proper intention.
The priest facing the people was never mandated by Rome, even for the Novus Ordo. However, it marks a significant change in understanding the Mass. When the priest and people face the same direction, it is clear that they are all facing God, sharing in the same sacrifice at an altar. When the priest faces the people, he is turning his back away from Christ in the tabernacle to face the people in sharing a meal around a table.
Latin is still the normative language even of the Novus Ordo. As a dead language, the meanings of words no longer change and thus it is no longer subject to misinterpretation. Moreover, the use of a single language at Mass means that all Catholics, whatever their mother tongue, could go to any church in the world and understand the Mass.
Moreover, since very few people can ad lib in Latin, it prevents the flagrant liturgical abuse that priests can make by ad libbing changes to the words of consecration, thus invalidating it.
However, many of these practices which arose after Vatican II--mass in vernacular languages, Communion in the hand and under both species to the laity, priest facing the people--were in fact those carried out by the Protestant Reformers to deny the Real Presence and the sacrifical element of the Mass in favour of a symbolic celebration of a meal. For that reason alone, these changes are contrary to Catholic faith.
No Pope can bind another Pope on matters of liturgy, so the Novus Ordo is the manner of celebrating the Mass used today.
Quo Primum specifically established the Tridentine Rite as the Rite of the Mass for all time.
The Pope, speaking ex cathedra, is considered infallible when he pronounces on matters of faith. The Mass is the sublime expression of the central truth of the Catholic faith. Therefore matters of liturgy are matters of faith, to which Popes can bind their successors.
The SSPX left in a huff in 1987, ostensibly over the Tridentine Mass, but really over the fact that its members didn't accept Vatican II.
Partially true. Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated along with the four bishops whom he consecrated in 1988, to assure the continuation of the apostolic succession of bishops faithful to Catholic tradition who could in turn ordain priests to offer the unchanged and unchanging sacraments of the Church.
Vatican II was not a doctrinal, but a pastoral council. Therefore, its teachings are not infallible, nor do they otherwise bind Catholics in conscience. A Catholic may therefore question the wisdom of Vatican II, but this does not make him heretical or schismatic.
We can tell a tree by its fruits, and the fruits of Vatican II can be seen in the great loss of faith, vocations and fidelity to the Church's teachings among the laity, and the misdirection and apostasy of much of the priesthood, religious, and bishops.
All other councils were noted for the growth in faith and piety of the laity, priests, and religious which followed them. Vatican II stands out as a glaring exception so far, but we may need another generation before its fruits, if any, emerge.
The Tridentine Mass is permitted today, but only with special permission from the bishop.
As Quo Primum could not be abrogated, a priest doesn't need the permission of the bishop to celebrate it. If a diocesan priest in charge of a parish were to decide, for the good of his parishoners, to stop celebrating the New Mass and sacraments in his church, the bishop could not stop him.
However, it may be more prudent in some circumstances to seek permission.
I am wondering why you are so worried about such news being prominently posted. It was very recent and totally new to ALL Freepers (100%) - therefore it was indeed breaking news. Just as the Fireman statue flap was "Breaking News" even though the events covered had actually occured much earlier.
But it does seem like some credit might go to Bush, Katherine Harris, and the voters of the great state of Tennessee. Seems like this merger would have never been allowed by the anti-trust division of the Clinton Justice Dept.
Another good news bump. =)
I do know that he was meeting with clerics from Iraq that day including Mar Rouphael I Bidawid Patriarch of Babylon for the Catholic Chaldean discussing a possible trip to Iraq. He is not the other person in the photo, either. Maybe a few questions to the folks at EWTN are in order.
Mar Rouphael I Bidawid
Obviously, they will say their masses in Latin--their native language.
Not sounding so Christian there.
The latest development (some time ago) in these negotiations, as I understand it, was that SSPX was offered a prelature similar to that of Opus Dei, which would enable it to work in any diocese without the local bishop's permission. Bishop Fellay's response to this was to impose two conditions, which SSPX considers non-negotiable, as I understand it. Firstly, the excommunications imposed on the bishops consecrated by Lefebvre must be lifted and secondly, the Tridentine Mass must be accessable to any priest who wishes to celebrate it at any time.
After the passing of several months, the Vatican has yet to reply to these demands as far as I know.
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