The New Conservative Divide: Paleocons versus Neocons

AmericanDaily.com ^ | Mon Apr 21, 2003 | Rachel Alexander

[justshe]

The left has so hijacked the American mindset that the "conservatives" are battling each other...my bippy!!!!

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I disagree--if "my bippy" means you think there is no battle. Have you observed the 'wars' between the so=called "Bush-Bots" and the "True Conservatives" on this forum? Or did I miss your point?

[William McKinley]

Somehow, paleos have decided that the 'us versus them' mindset suits their goals, and have taken it to the absurd extreme where Dick Cheney is considered by them to be a leading neoconservative. Talk about redefining language to where words have little link to their real meaning!

[William McKinley]

By the way, I wish that the author had provided a basis for this claim:

However, paleocon views have become more popular since 9/11,

If this is true, I have not seen any evidence that it is true.

[billbears]

absurd extreme where Dick Cheney is considered by them to be a leading neoconservative

LOL!! Perhaps you haven't checked out the New American Century website run by the Kristolites of which Cheney was a part of up until 1998. It's not absurd, it's fact

[Darheel]

Arch-Con bump.

[justshe]

I wondered about the 9/11 reference too. The only thing I could figure was that 'closing the borders' and the broad-brush 'muslim bashing' came down, in this author's view, as in the Paleo column.

[katana]

I believe you're right that the politics of the "paleocons" resembles and traces its roots to the "America First" movement of the 30's and early 40's of which Charles Lindberg was a leader with notable anti-semitic leanings. That movement was all but entirely discredited by WWII, but a strain of it has continued to this day under leaders like Taft and Buchanan.

The term "neocon", as far as I can tell, is more often than not used as a code word for "conservative Jew", and my personal reaction to anyone who uses the term is suspicion and a bit of revulsion.

Where this author really lost me, however, was his assertion that the Christian conservatives tend to be anti-Israel and therefore in the "paleoconservative" camp. If this were the case, you'd have to lump Robert Novak and Pat Buchanan in with conservative born-again Christians and that just doesn't work. If anything, conservative Christians are as or more supportive of Israel than many or most American Jews!

[johnb838]

I see the neoconservative movement as being composed of those whom thirty years ago would have been considered to be conservative democrats. As the democrapic party lurched further and further to the left, these voters switched affiliation to the republican party. Here in Texas I would consider Senator Phil Gramm as one of the original neocons. Obviously these people were conservative before leaving the dims. But today there is no such thing as a conservative democrat. Ergo, all conservatives are republican. The dimboz would argue with that, but (almost) all demons who claim to be conservative are liars.

[William McKinley]

As I said- it is a redefinition of terms that renders the term neoconservative meaningless.

Bill Bennett, neocon?

Steve Forbes, neocon?

Gary Bauer, neocon?

Francis Fukuyama, neocon?

Only one definition seems consistent in the paleo lingo- anyone claiming to be a conservative, or labelled as a conservative by the media, who is not a paleoconservative, must be a neoconservative.

[goldstategop]

The conservative movement was never hijacked. To an increasing extent it has evolved from the days when it was a minority intellectual movement to being a mainstream philosophy that makes itself felt in the corridors of power. Conservatism has succeeded in America by shaking off the tendency to define America in terms of an ethnic nativist ideal that never was and also by rejecting the isolationist view that if America shuts itself out from the world its problems won't come here to endanger us. Both positions are held by paleo-cons and to a lesser extent by some libertarians. The problem the paleos see with American diversity is actually the country's greatest source of strength thanks to the contributions made by people from all over the world to America's prosperity and security. And with 9-11 its not simply possible to avoid dealing with danger at it source. This is where pre-emptive intervention abroad actually enhances American well-being in way that pulling down the window shades on the train and pretending the Indians aren't shooting at us doesn't. Mainstream conservatives are cognizant of political reality and fervently embrace Ronald Reagan's admonition America is a country too great to be constrained by limits. Paleo-cons suffer from being handicapped by idealizing that America's glory is all behind her and the country in decline. In contrast most conservatives believe America's best days are yet to come and this country has yet to achieve its full potential. Instead of fighting a battle to preserve an America that never was and won't come to existence and fighting to limit America's place in the world, paleo cons should join mainstream conservatives to make America a country better in law and spirit and to make this century another American Century.

[FairOpinion]

"The Old Right scholar M.E. Bradford discusses the Left's infiltration of the conservative movement (as "neocons") in his book, _The Reactionary Imperative_. "

Exactly -- these are NOT conservatives, they are leftists calling themselves conservatives.

But we have to keep in mind, that, as they say: "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, even if it calls itself a flamingo, it's still a duck"

I have noticed even here at FR people who claim they are conservatives, but curiously enough they come down on the same side as the leftists on every issue.

Maybe we should call them "pretenders" or "pretend-conservatives", or "LPC"s ( Leftists Pretending to be conservatives") or "LMAC"s ( Leftists Masquarading As Conservatives. What the heck, let's create a few more labels.

[k2blader]

Just for the purpose of personal amusement, is there a "neocon, paleocon, or whatevercon?" quizlet available anywhere?

[goldstategop]

hehehe... that's why liberals get so batty. Just cause you dress like a 60s counterculture dude doesn't necessarily mean you follow Tom Hayden and the New Left. Some of us tuned out, dropped out, and turned to conservative acid early on and man we learned to love it. If that makes us conspirators so be it.

[ampat]

That's new neo-nouveau.

[Lysander]

We need "labels", "names" and "notions" to be able to think and to see the world around us.

Ben is that you? The Whorfian Hypothesis

[FirstTomato]

I do believe that the left is behind all this debate between conservatives.

They want to divide us because they themselves are so divided. They want to spread the joy.

And I don't know who the libertarians think they're kidding, but they don't fool me.

[Hoppean]

I have noticed even here at FR people who claim they are conservatives, but curiously enough they come down on the same side as the leftists on every issue.

You're right, and I don't mean to provoke or upset those people or accuse them of bad faith. I understand the situation and know exactly why it's the case. Liberalism, its values and philosophy, have so pervaded every aspect of American society since at least the 1930s, that even many of those who say they oppose liberals have absorbed liberal thought patterns.

[FirstTomato]

Sorry, my quip about the Libertarians in #76 wasn't meant as a personal slight, but simply that I have a healthy mistrust of Libertarianism. Sorry. Nothing personal.

[goldstategop]

If Pat Buchanan wants to join Leonara Fulani and the Marxist Left in seeing America as all messed up due to the Jews and Israel he's welcome to it, but he and crew should stop trying to make it appear as though the only thing left to do is to switch off the last light in America. Our 200 odd year old national party is far from over.

[Hoppean]

Yes, there is an online quiz you can take that asks you your position on different issues and then can tell you whether you lean more neo or paleo. I've found it pretty accurate. Here it is:

http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/select.php?client=zeron