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To: hchutch
Evidence of what? Where is the demonstrable harm to America's national security?

We're fighting a War on Terror based, in part, on a principle of pre-emption. We aren't going to wait until terrorists or terror states attack, or can threaten us with WMDs, we're taking the fight to them.

Why, then, should we preclude pre-emption with regard to Fifth Columnists in the WoT?

Shouldn't we find them before they do harm our national security?

The illegal transfers to the People's republic of China were proven to my satisfaction and to a Congressional Committee's satisfaction.

Great, let's get a Congressional Committee to investigate the Islamist Fifth Columnists, and those who are aiding them in their efforts.

Right now, there is NO evidence of harm to nationals ecurity or the prosecution of the war. Only very serious charges being laid out.

Thanks for acknowledging the charges are serious.

Unfortunately, you seem, like the Democrats, to want to wait until our national security is actually harmed before you're willing to do anything to prevent it.

And what strikes me as suspicious is that in the ABSENCE of any evidence of a crime on the part of Grover Norquist, you demand a full investigation.

Isn't the purpose of investigations, to gather evidence? What we do have with Norquist is a lot of evidence that he's cozy with terror symps, and has assisted them in penetrating the circles of power in Washington. Maybe he's just an ambitious dupe, and has committed no crime. Maybe some of his associates have committed crimes. Sami Al Arian is under arrest for involvement with Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Abdurahman Alamoudi is under arrest for charges that include financial dealings with al-Qaeda and Hamas. Alamoudi also helped recruit the Islamic chaplain spies at Gitmo. Khaled Saffuri, Ahmoudi's former deputy at the American Muslim Council, and Norquists current partner at the Islamic Institute, whom Norquist calls a "great patriot," gave money to the Holy Land Foundation, now a banned terror organization. Their Islamic Institute has received donations from the Safa Group, an umbrella for a number of terror orgs.

No, nothing to raise suspicions here, no reason to investigate.

Do you know what your position sounds like to me? It sounds like Tom Foley saying that the charges that Reagan-Bush campaign officials met with Iranian officials to sabotage negotiations to release the hostages held by Iran - baseless charges leveled by Carter Administration Gary Sick needed to be investigated BECAUSE there was no evidence of wrongdoing. "We need to investigate for evidence of wrongdoing BECAUSE there is no evidence of wrongdoing."

You sound like John Glenn.

Is providing access to terror symps an example of rightdoing, or wrongdoing?

Where is the evidence of criminal wrongdoing? I have seen NONE.

Where's the evidence that you want to look? And why are you now hedging with "criminal" wrongdoing?

I have seen nothing that indicates that at all. So that leads me to believe this is more about settling some sort of score that some people have with Norquist than it is about national security, and using the same type of smear tactics that were used against George Bush Sr.

How badly will President Bush be smeared if you're wrong?

Tell you what: 90% of the reason I'm voting to re-elect this President is because of the War on Terror. I don't want that war or his re-election hindered because Republicans were unwilling to look squarely at a problem in our own camp in the person of Grover Norquist.


121 posted on 12/09/2003 6:29:00 PM PST by Sabertooth (Credit where it's due: saveourlicense.com prevented SB60, and the Illegal Alien CDLs... for now.)
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To: Sabertooth; Bob J; Poohbah
Show the evidence that the war effort has been harmed, and that wrongdoing by Norauist was a factor, and I'll discuss it further. But as it stands right now, this sounds less like a serious call for a legitimate investigation and instead it is more along the lines of Gary Sick's wild accusations and Tom Foley's fishing expedition that didn't find anything.

I don't want the war effort or President Bush's re-election harmed, either. The latter is a critical step towards ensuring the war effort succeeds. I do not want that jeopordized because some conservatives decided to make political hay at the expense of Grover Norquist.

So, produce proof that Norquist's outreach and actions harmed the war effort, and then there would be a basis for assuming there is a problem. But there has been no harm to the war effort. You yourself have said it is going well.

I can only conclude that your motives are more about reducing Grover Norquist's influence than they are about a genuine concern for national security and the war effort.
126 posted on 12/09/2003 6:50:02 PM PST by hchutch ("I don't see what the big deal is, I really don't." - Major Vic Deakins, USAF (ret.))
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To: Sabertooth
If Grover was investigated under RICO, his associations would have sent him to the pokey.
288 posted on 12/11/2003 10:23:21 AM PST by swarthyguy
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To: Sabertooth
Well, this has been a very interesting thread so far and I'm looking forward to the rest of it.
I especially liked the part about the chaplains. Who could have possibly imagined, so long ago, that there would be so many Islamic followers needing spiritual guidance in the future while being detained at Guitmo!
How fortuitous that early decision has come to be. /sarcasm

I'd really like to see this sort of exploration go all the way back to OKC and before. What names we'd see then!
Alas, it'll never be. Too much time has elapsed and Americans are no longer interested.

314 posted on 12/11/2003 1:57:11 PM PST by philman_36
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