POLL: Would you support a temporary work visa for illegal aliens?

Q: Why does the United States Government need foreign workers (not just Mexicans)?

A good deal of the reason is because a significant portion of the American workforce is locked out of many of the jobs that illegals fill because of government regulations and liability insurance exclusions on underage workers. Specifically, those under 18. For instance, when I was in high school, one of my classmates worked a full-time shift drilling oilwells. Absolutely not an option for a 17 year old today. A case in point--My neighbors own an art gallery & needed someone to run a weed-eater & hedgetrimmers around the landscaping at the gallery. They talked to us about hiring our 16 YO son but later discovered they could not legally hire anyone under 18 to do that type of work. Many of what were traditionally teenage type jobs, like mowing lawns, are now off-limits to those workers. Illegal workers fill the void.

Just two days ago, I noticed a jobs posting on the door at my local grocery. Needed are workers in several departments w/ the addendum that those over 18 YOA are especially encouraged to apply. For sure, I would imagine that the store wants more mature workers for lots of good reasons, but other reasons are because of state laws that strictly & rather severely limit the number of hours underage workers can be on the job and the additional & burdensome amount of paperwork the employer has to complete documenting that underage workers are not working past the legal limits of hours on the job. The end result is that even for jobs that under 18 workers could legally perform, they don't get the job because the employer just doesn't want to have to piss around w/ all the extra paper & regulations involved in hiring them.

You make some excellent points here.

Up until the beginning of the illegal worker invasion, most of the seasonal agricultural work was done by young men ages 15 - 18 during summer break.

(In fact, that is why we have a summer break to begin with, so that children could stay at home and help bring in the crop harvest.)

Now, the only thing we are harvesting in this country (besides the lettuce, corn, chicken, peanuts, etc.) during the summer is gang murder and millions upon millions of illegal workers.

Speaking of the legality of not hiring a native American youth under 18 ~versus~ hiring an illegal immigrant - really makes one wonder who is BULLCHITTING who is this country!

How then did America function prior to the 1990's?

There were lots of illegal Mexican workers here before the '90's. I lived in NW Oklahoma for a lot of years. A friend of the family had a job driving the bus(in the 60's) that returned illegals back to Mexico. He'd often tell stories of the recently deported worker beating the bus back to this side of the Rio Grande. In the early '70's, my uncle-in-law lived in one of those gated golf-course country club communities--upper middle class--outside Fort Worth. Nearly every member of the community employed a part-time illegal as well as the did the CC. Illegal Mexican workers have long been a significantly sized workforce in the US.

How did we become the greatest industrial nation on earth before all those wonderful illegals came here?

To start with, the United States is an immigrant nation. Immigrants have built virtually everything post-contact. At the heart of every expansion you will find waves of immigration. Without immigrant labor, we would not have become ''the greatest industrial nation on earth''. The Chinese & Irish built the railroads, the Germans & Poles were at the heart of the beer, construction, packing, agriculture, machine & foundry industries in the upper middle west. Germans were also a significant presence in agriculture & ranching in Texas. During the potato famine (1845), approx. 2 million Irish came to the US & formed a huge pool of unskilled labor & filled many menial labor jobs across a multitude of industries--railroads & garment industry, notably. Scandinavians settled in the upper Mid-west and expanded the agriculture & fishing industries. Italians were a major force in fruit, wine & contruction. And each group in their turn was met w/ the same sort of derision that is currently being heaped upon Hispanics. But the simple & undeniable fact is that this nation would not be the force it is today w/o the tremendous fuel of expansion that the immigrant has provided.

You make a couple of great points...the cascading effects of a group of hormone charged American youths being locked out of bone-wearying summer labor and having few options for productively channeling that energy & time. The results are milling around in malls & exhibiting pack behavior.

And the point about the legalities on one hand & illegalities on the other--Yup, I strongly suspect that the forces that be don't want the current situation changed one iota. The illegal laborer is kept in line (from the employer's standpoint) by the fact that he is illegal and that legitimate issues about safety, overtime pay, etc. go unchallenged.

Yeah, maybe all the citizens of Cal, Arizona, Texas, Nevada, and Colorado should just move. Just so all the illegals and their apologist will be happy. We wouldn't want these people entering our country illegally to be upset.

And in 5 years all US citizens in those states bordering those should move until eventually (sooner than later) the Mexican flag will be raised on the capital steps. Sorry, but this is one Texan who's staying put and fighting for my homestead and state.

Thanks for spouting the liberal line to me. There is a difference. You failed to note that we are a nation of legal immigrants.

I am sure that you have read of the burden that these people put on our society, not to mention the fact that they are forcing us to change our societal ways. I say there is a limit and we have surpassed it. It is time to take back control of our society or we will be overun like a wounded animal in the forest that is consumed by the forest's scavengers.

Thanks for spouting the liberal line to me. There is a difference. You failed to note that we are a nation of legal immigrants.

To recap, your question was: How did we become the greatest industrial nation on earth before all those wonderful illegals came here?

Considering that the United States Bureau of Immigration wasn't created until the early 1890's & working under the assumption that anyone who wants to argue about immigration should be aware of that fact, that for all practical purposes the United States had open borders (at a federal level) prior to that time, the understanding should have been that all immigration up until that time was just plain immigration from a federal standpoint. However, you cannot say that all immigration up until that time was legal immigration because, in fact, many states had state immigration laws & those laws were often violated. For instance, during the period 1830-1850 many of the former colonial states enacted laws baring the entry of Irish, Catholics & German settlers.

Insofar as your remark, Thanks for spouting the liberal line to me, my experience is that when someone begins to hurl invective, it's a clear indication that they are bereft of a rational & educated rebutal. To put that into terms you can understand, that means: Elli-2, raybbr-zip.

(1)To start with, the United States is an immigrant nation. >>>

(2)And each group in their turn was met w/ the same sort of derision that is currently being heaped upon Hispanics. But the simple & undeniable fact is that this nation would not be the force it is today w/o the tremendous fuel of expansion that the immigrant has provided.>>>>>>>

(1)Well all know the story about being an 'immigrant nation', but some of you always *forget* over the last 40 sum years, we have also became a WELFARE STATE. MY Germans ancestors DID NOT have everything *translated* for them @ a cost to the U.S citizens. No *free medical* & all the other *perks* ILLEGALS receive today.

(2)Someone posted Ted Kennedy speech when he first started cramming more immigration on us. Part of it said, "that NO one segment of immigrants would become so large, that they would change OUR country from the melting pot it had ALWAYS been". Now if the *mass* of hispanics has NOT changed your everyday life, your town, and your schools, you must be living on Mars. Since many hispanics have refused to assimilate (learn English)we now have others demanding everything in their own language also.
I read somewhere that (BROKE) LA county spends 1-2 million more on elections for ballots in 8 languages. Even the immigrants that can now vote, won't learn ENGLISH.
If the illegals are so good for our economy, why is CA going bankrupt???According to you their streets should be paved with gold.

Mexico comes HERE & issues their I.D. to illegals, now other countries are lining up to do the same for their own illegals. Ya, think every country should be able to come here & issue *legal* I.D.'s to their ILLEGALS ???

You're obviously not reading this thread. I addressed that three time now.

I'll add this. We ARE a nation of immigrants. This entire nation was built on cheap ... hell, and FREE .... labor.

Right now we have a very unbalanced labor situation. The unions have gotten wages for SOME semi-skilled-highschool-educated workers (dock workers) over $100 an hour while some illegals are working for four or five dollars an hour.

Some companies with profit-share plans are paying their employees three and four times industry standard and their workers are so motivated the company is still leading in their industry.

Other companies are saying they cannot make a profit here and are sending everything over-seas.

Seems to me that forcing up the bottom tier by instituting a guest-worker program would help to balance the labor market and actually increase competitiveness.

This cannot be done without near draconian enforcement leveled at the consumer of illegal labor. Not the provider. As to the costs .... I don't think all told it will cost us anything more than we are already paying in welfare and crime related costs as it is.

There really is no arguing with folks who refuse to see the vital role the Mexican laborer plays in our present economy. I think they walk around with blinders on. Maybe all the cubicle-bound can pretend that they don't depend on south of the border labor but anyone who works with their hand knows they are everywhere.

Few amoung us understand the agricultural system in this land. They themselves will tell you they are barely making it. The processing and distributing end of that industry takes the LIONS share. Take their cheap labor from them and you will see havock and empty shelves at the market.

You have responded to only a small part of my post

I am sure that you have read of the burden that these people put on our society, not to mention the fact that they are forcing us to change our societal ways. I say there is a limit and we have surpassed it. It is time to take back control of our society or we will be overun like a wounded animal in the forest that is consumed by the forest's scavengers.

You fail to respond to the facts presented time and again that illegal immigrants are a drain on our society. They cannot, due to lack of education or the fact that most of them are unskilled labor, raise the level of our society. It is impossible. Please don't give me the gardener/pool cleaner arguement. I don't own a pool and I do my own gardening.

I work with illegals because my company will only hire people that are willing to work for next to nothing. Their standard of living is increased ten fold working for just above minimum wage. While an America, who follows the laws of our country, could not make it at the same wage. Hence, they would experience a drop in their standard of living.

People like you tend to ignore the dilution of our society by the incursion of these criminals. Why?

When can we as a country, exercise our right to say that people cannot come here unabated?

How can you support criminal behavior as you do? You post many arguements justifying illegal behavior. When do we as a country get to say "enough"?

As for the arguement that we are a nation of immigrants - while that may be true do we not then have the right to say - now- it is time to stop it? If not, then, why not?

There's something you can pin on the liberals--the expansion of the welfare state. And the result of it is that this country has started to attract another type of immigrant. Besides the ones that come here to work & improve their lot in life, the welfare state attracts the losers, loafers & free lunch crowd. Bounce their asses back to Mexico or wherever they came from & stop the hand-outs. Don't automatically grant citizenship status to babies whose moms' water broke south of the Rio Grande and who are delivered north of the Rio Grande. Use some freaking common sense because the current system does an injustice to American taxpayers and the honest & hard-working folks who come here to work and earn their way in life. Work permits--OK. Loafing losers--No way.

This cannot be done without near draconian enforcement leveled at the consumer of illegal labor. Not the provider. As to the costs .... I don't think all told it will cost us anything more than we are already paying in welfare and crime related costs as it is.

I don't understand how you can justify criminality. We need to expunge these criminals now.

There really is no arguing with folks who refuse to see the vital role the Mexican laborer plays in our present economy. I think they walk around with blinders on. Maybe all the cubicle-bound can pretend that they don't depend on south of the border labor but anyone who works with their hand knows they are everywhere.

Are you only for illegal Mexicans or do Poles, Asians, Russians, Indians, Ethiopians count also? Part of this issue is the fact that we are only going to give all of these special rights to illegal Hispanics from mostly Mexico. Why the hypocrisy?

I do not depend on illegal labor. It is forced upon me by the lax enforcement of our laws. If I could I would go into a restaurant and ask if they have illegals there. If they said yes then I would walk out. Can you imagine the repercussions?

The part of the equation you conveniently leave out is the effect this is having on our society. I do not want to speak spanish. At all. Ever. Hispanics add nothing to my life per se. Yet, at every turn I am forced to accomodate hispanic languages, traditions and norms. Why? Why can't we ask them to assimilate into American society the way that has been done by millions of legal immigrants before?

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