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Cardinal favours condoms to stop AIDS (leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul)
The Guardian via SMH ^ | January 14, 2004 | John Hooper in Rome and Andrew Osborn in Brussels

Posted on 01/13/2004 6:30:40 AM PST by dead

A Belgian cardinal who is among the leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul has broken the Catholic church's taboo on the use of condoms, declaring that, in certain circumstances, they should be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.

Godfried Danneels was careful to say he preferred abstinence as a means of prevention, but added that if someone who was HIV-positive did have sex, failing to use a condom would break the sixth commandment, thou shalt not kill.

His comments are a further sign that the ailing Pope may be losing some grip on the more liberal wing of his immense church. Shortly after being named a "prince of the church" last September, Cardinal Keith O'Brien, of Scotland, said the ban on contraception should be debated, along with such issues as priestly celibacy and homosexual clergy.

In an interview with the Dutch Catholic broadcaster RKK, Cardinal Danneels said: "When someone is HIV-positive and his partner says, 'I want to have sexual relations with you', he doesn't have to do that . . . But when he does, he has to use a condom."

He added: "This comes down to protecting yourself in a preventive manner against a disease or death. [It] cannot be entirely morally judged in the same manner as a pure method of birth control."

The cardinal's argument emphasises the importance of human life, the very factor that Pope John Paul has long evinced as justification for a ban on all forms of contraception.

The Catholic church teaches that abstinence, including between married couples, is the only morally acceptable way to prevent the spread of AIDS.

Cardinal Danneels's views clash with those aired last year by Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the Vatican's top adviser on family questions. The Colombian cardinal claimed that condoms could not halt HIV because it was small enough to pass through them. He said relying on them to prevent infection was like "betting on your own death".

Those remarks were condemned by, among others, the World Health Organisation, which said condoms reduced the risk of infection by 90 per cent.

In 2000, Cardinal Danneels caused consternation in the Vatican by suggesting that popes should not remain in office until they died but have limited terms.

Cardinal Danneels, 70, and Archbishop of Brussels and Mechelen,

has also called for flexibility and leniency for Catholics who divorce and then remarry without obtaining a church-sanctioned annulment, and has said he advocates women playing a larger role in the church.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aids; catholic; godfrieddanneels; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Thanks. I do understand that condoms are hardly effective, either as birth control OR as Aids-preventives, but for the sake of the discussion (finally getting lslattery to explicate) I ignored that fact.

Frankly, I still prefer the use of a 9mm, but I fear lslattery will have other thoughts.
201 posted on 01/13/2004 5:14:37 PM PST by ninenot (So many cats, so few recipes)
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To: Jorge
Unfortunately there are some people who would prefer to see people die rather than ever use condoms.

No, there are some people unwilling to tell them the LIE that condom use prevents AIDS.

Who is more compassionate: the Church, which tells the woman if she has marital relations with him on any regular basis, with or without a condom, she is going to get HIV and knows that to counsel ANY marital relations, WITH OR WITHOUT condom use, is condemning the woman to certain exposure?

Or you, who tells the woman to go ahead and get AIDS and die?

202 posted on 01/13/2004 5:14:56 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Jorge
This thread is about the Catholic religion. You might have noticed that. Contraception is a mortal sin according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I know that what the inevitable reply to this post will be, but so be it.

As for the cursing, I apologize if I offended you, but cursing-unless taking God's name in vain-is on the level of spitting on the sidewalk. Probably not recommended, but it's not even a venial sin.

203 posted on 01/13/2004 5:17:24 PM PST by Clintons a commie
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To: ninenot
Frankly, I still prefer the use of a 9mm

9mm is for Euro-sissies. Real men carry a .45 ;-)

204 posted on 01/13/2004 5:17:29 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: ninenot
Particular circumstances call for particular judgments,

Wow. Ninenot, I agree with you completely here. Of course, had I said that, I would have been accused of heresy, or liberalism or despising Humanae Vitae.

The principle of double effect is a long-established moral principle, in Catholic moral theology.

205 posted on 01/13/2004 5:22:24 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: verity
Because I bind myself to the Truth I am brainwashed?
206 posted on 01/13/2004 5:26:46 PM PST by johnb2004
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To: CAtholic Family Association
No, there are some people unwilling to tell them the LIE that condom use prevents AIDS.

How do you know it's a lie?
This is something still being debated.

And in general condoms are STILL considered by the mainstream medical community to be effective protection against the transmittion of AIDS.

Who is more compassionate: the Church, which tells the woman if she has marital relations with him on any regular basis, with or without a condom, she is going to get HIV and knows that to counsel ANY marital relations, WITH OR WITHOUT condom use, is condemning the woman to certain exposure?

Or you, who tells the woman to go ahead and get AIDS and die?

NOTHING in anything I've posted has ever told "the woman to go ahead and get AIDS and die". That's absurd.
(don't Catholics believe bearing false witness is a sin?)

Stop twisting what my message was.

I said it is BETTER for people to use condoms and prevent AIDS than to mindlessly spread it, in order to adhere to somebody's theological objection to condom use.

207 posted on 01/13/2004 5:43:19 PM PST by Jorge
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To: Jorge
And in general condoms are STILL considered by the mainstream medical community to be effective protection against the transmittion of AIDS.

In case you haven't noticed, this is a thread discussing the Catholic doctrine on contraception. According to Church teaching, using contraceptives is always, objectively speaking, a mortal sin(just as masturbation is,and fornication, etc.). The job of the Church is guidance of souls, not medical advice. The only thing that that the Church would recommend for preventing the spreading of the HIV virus is abstinence.

208 posted on 01/13/2004 5:51:52 PM PST by Clintons a commie
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To: sinkspur
"The principle of double effect is a long-established moral principle, in Catholic moral theology."

The principle of double effect MAY apply where a GOOD primary action has a GOOD primary effect, which also produces an evil secondary effect.

What you are proposing involves an evil primary action and is therefore not permissable.

It is a fundamental principle of Catholicism that you may NEVER do evil in order to achieve a good end.
209 posted on 01/13/2004 5:54:07 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Jorge
NOTHING in anything I've posted has ever told "the woman to go ahead and get AIDS and die". That's absurd. (don't Catholics believe bearing false witness is a sin?)

Stop twisting what my message was.

Oh, but its OK for you to say about us

Unfortunately there are some people who would prefer to see people die rather than ever use condoms.

Turnabout is fair game, don't YOU believe bearing false witness is a sin?

How do you know it's a lie? This is something still being debated.

Not by anyone remotely aware of the current research.

210 posted on 01/13/2004 5:59:55 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Clintons a commie
This thread is about the Catholic religion. You might have noticed that. Contraception is a mortal sin according to the teachings of the Catholic Church. I know that what the inevitable reply to this post will be, but so be it.

I bet you don't know.
I am not arguing with Catholic Church doctrine on contraception as much as I am arguing with what I see as the unbalanced and even inverted application of God's law when two moral principles seemingly come into conflict.

My point is that those who would rather see people die from AIDS in order not to violate some law or statute against contraception has distorted priorities when it comes to genuine morality.

Worse than this, I believe they promote an image of God that is counterproductive and ultimately drives people away from the church.

As for the cursing, I apologize if I offended you, but cursing-unless taking God's name in vain-is on the level of spitting on the sidewalk. Probably not recommended, but it's not even a venial sin.

My objection had little to do with my personal offense at your cursing.

I just wonder how seriously you expect to be taken when in the same post where you lecture people on sin, you commit the sin of swearing at them.
It kind of discredits your statement.

211 posted on 01/13/2004 6:02:01 PM PST by Jorge
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To: cupcakes
cupcakes,She would call her parish priest,Father would help her,My prayers for her and husband.
212 posted on 01/13/2004 6:08:10 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: cajungirl
cajungirl,Thank you for your questions,fatima
213 posted on 01/13/2004 6:11:57 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: Jorge
I just wonder how seriously you expect to be taken when in the same post where you lecture people on sin, you commit the sin of swearing at them. It kind of discredits your statement.

Who the hell was I lecturing about sin?(Oops, I let out another one of those naughty words!). My post was directed to an ordained deacon of the Catholic Church who posts on this site regularly who was undermining the teaching of the Church. As I said in that post, I sympathize with people who struggle with these issues because I'm a fallen human being too. But someone who purports to represent the Church should promote Catholic teaching. Period. End of story.

I also find it amusing that the word "damn" is considered to be so sinful and evil.

Oh well, what can else can you expect from a society and the people that dwell in it that condones the murder of 4,000 babies daily, but outlaws smoking in public places?

214 posted on 01/13/2004 6:14:02 PM PST by Clintons a commie
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To: sitetest
sitetest,Me thinks you not a priest but good insight,for all in doubt csll you local priests-freepmail me-I have #'s,fatima.
215 posted on 01/13/2004 6:16:53 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: Jorge
My point is that those who would rather see people die from AIDS in order not to violate some law or statute against contraception has distorted priorities when it comes to genuine morality.

There you go again. No one would rather see people die from AIDS except those who tell them to go ahead and have sex but use a condom.

If they have sex using a condom, they WILL still get AIDS. You are saying we're wrong for promoting abstaining. But abstaining is the ONLY option available to definitely not get AIDS.

Promoting condom use instead is condemning these folks to definitely eventually getting AIDS.

So YOU are the one who would rather see people die from AIDS in order not to have them adhere to foundational Christian moral theology.

216 posted on 01/13/2004 6:27:27 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Jorge "NOTHING in anything I've posted has ever told "the woman to go ahead and get AIDS and die". That's absurd. (don't Catholics believe bearing false witness is a sin?) Stop twisting what my message was."

CAtholic Family Association;Oh, but its OK for you to say about us
Jorge"Unfortunately there are some people who would prefer to see people die rather than ever use condoms."

Turnabout is fair game, don't YOU believe bearing false witness is a sin?

Nice try but it won't work.

You haven't been following the dialogue.

I was addressing one of your Catholic FR fellow representatives, johnb2004, who in response to cajungirl clearly implied that it was better for a wife to die from AIDS, than to resort to the "intrinsically evil" act of condom use.

So I had the perfect right to say what I said.

You on the other hand can find NOTHING in any of my posts where I state that I believe it is better for people to contract AIDS and die rather than adhere to what I believe.

I said it would be better for people to use condoms than die from AIDS.

That is NOWHERE near what your Catholic buddy said.

In any case if he doesn't represent your views, all you had to do was say so.

217 posted on 01/13/2004 6:29:03 PM PST by Jorge
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To: fatima
call
218 posted on 01/13/2004 6:31:44 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: Jorge
I said it would be better for people to use condoms than die from AIDS.

Condoms have a one in five failure rate at preventing HIV transmission. Its worse than Russian Roullete.

If you are saying its better for people to have sex anyways but use a condom, you are saying its better for them to die of AIDS. Period.

219 posted on 01/13/2004 6:33:13 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Jorge
How do you know it's a lie? This is something still being debated.

Condoms have a 15% failure rate in preventing pregnancy. A woman can only get pregnant 7 to 10 days each month. She can get HIV any day of the month. Therefore a one in five chance at getting HIV with condoms is at best a hopeful wish.

No one debates this except those advocating condom use between a wife and her HIV + spouse in the face of overwhelming evidence that such is suicidal.

220 posted on 01/13/2004 6:45:36 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Jorge"My point is that those who would rather see people die from AIDS in order not to violate some law or statute against contraception has distorted priorities when it comes to genuine morality."

There you go again. No one would rather see people die from AIDS except those who tell them to go ahead and have sex but use a condom.

Once again, you're completely wrong.

You've jumped into the middle of an exchange without reading the posts, and your responses and accusations are totally off the mark.

Let me fill you in on what you've missed;
___________________________

think about it. Married people get aids from either preexisting sexual activity or from blood. Now in the context of marital sex with a spouse with aids, would you be opposed to condom usuage.

9 posted on 01/13/2004 10:42:06 AM EST by cajungirl

To: cajungirl Yes. The act of contraception is intrinsically evil One may never commit an intrinsically evil act even if some limited good may come from it. 10 posted on 01/13/2004 11:10:17 AM EST by johnb2004 _____________________________

Read it!

Johnb2004 clearly says that he believes it is better for a wife not to commit the "intrinsically evil act" of condom use "even if some limited good may come from it." (preventing AIDS and death)

NOWHERE will you find a post of mine saying anything like the above statement.

Nowhere do I ever state that I prefer anybody to die rather than adhere to my moral principles.

221 posted on 01/13/2004 6:52:12 PM PST by Jorge
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To: Clintons a commie
Jorge "I just wonder how seriously you expect to be taken when in the same post where you lecture people on sin, you commit the sin of swearing at them. It kind of discredits your statement."

Who the hell was I lecturing about sin?(Oops, I let out another one of those naughty words!).

You were lecturing sinkspur about sin.

I quote;
_________________________

"Using a contraceptive is, objectively speaking, always a mortal sin, so you're damn right it's a problem of the soul."
_________________________

178 posted on 01/13/2004 6:26:06 PM EST by Clintons a commie

222 posted on 01/13/2004 7:02:42 PM PST by Jorge
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To: CAtholic Family Association
If you are saying its better for people to have sex anyways but use a condom, you are saying its better for them to die of AIDS. Period.

You obviously prefer to assign positions you feel most comfortable attacking to posters you disagree with...rather than address what they ACTUALLY post.

Because YOU believe that condoms don't offer 100% protection against AIDS..you think that actually justifies you in accusing those who believe condoms protect people of "saying its better for them to die of AIDS. Period".

That is not only a lame argument, it is unreasonable and meanspirited. Not a very good testimony for Christ or the "CAtholic Family Association".

223 posted on 01/13/2004 7:16:17 PM PST by Jorge
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To: dead; Lead Moderator
dead,

Thanks for this post.

Lead Moderator, thanks for leaving this thread in news and not instantly shuffling it off to the obscurity of the religion forum.
224 posted on 01/13/2004 7:20:21 PM PST by Quix (Particularly quite true conspiracies are rarely proven until it's too late to do anything about them)
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To: sinkspur
The principle of double effect is a long-established moral principle, in Catholic moral theology.

Being young as I am, and still in studies, I will make no claim to mastery of Catholic moral theology. However, it is obvious to me that the principle of double effect cannot apply in this case, and that your analogy to the case of ectopic pregnancy is incorrect.

In the case of ectopic pregnancy, an abortion is not performed. Instead, the fallopian tube (which, as I understand, typically becomes infected in an ectopic pregnancy) is removed, and the fetus (which may already be dead) along with it. The death of the fetus is the secondary evil effect of the moral object, which is the prevention of the death of the mother through the removal of an infected fallopian tube.

In the case discussed in this thread, the primary action is the direct commission of a moral evil: the use of a contraceptive. St. Thomas, and all other theologians who argue for the soundness of the principle of double effect, make abundantly clear that an evil action may never be performed for the sake of a good effect. It, frankly, seems that you either misunderstand the principle of double effect, or you are intentionally misusing it.

I suppose I'll say one other thing: the word martyrdom came out of your e-mouth in a post quite a ways up on this thread... so how about it? Is it morally licit for a man or a woman, under the threat of death for being a Christian, to deny the faith in order not to be killed? By your reasoning, that which is "objectively" a mortal sin may be done in order to save a life. Either you believe that the use of a condom is not really a mortal sin, or you must, by your reasoning, accept that public denial of the faith to save one's life is morally acceptable.

225 posted on 01/13/2004 8:05:30 PM PST by pseudo-ignatius
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To: pseudo-ignatius
I said nothing about an ectopic pregnancy. I used a diseased uterus as an example.

But, as one other poster pointed out, this is a matter for the woman and her confessor, which is what I should have said in the first place. Much can be worked out in the internal forum.

226 posted on 01/13/2004 8:31:45 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a shelter dog or cat! You'll save one life, and maybe two!)
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To: pseudo-ignatius
pseudo-ignatius,You don.t like the poster-I am a female-had an ectopic pregnancy ,was my baby alive,yes.
227 posted on 01/13/2004 8:47:23 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: Jorge
You obviously prefer to assign positions you feel most comfortable attacking to posters you disagree with...rather than address what they ACTUALLY post.

You are guilty of same. You've done it on this thread as well as many others. I'm just throwing it back to your side of the court.

If you tell a woman whose spouse has AIDS that a condom will save her, you are condemning her to death. That's why Christians don't tell a woman whose spouse has AIDS that a condom will save her. They tell her that ANY sex can transmit AIDS, and a condom does not change that fact.

228 posted on 01/13/2004 9:07:35 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Jorge; johnb2004
johnb2004

Jorge is grossly and deceitfully misrepresenting what you said in post # 10, something he is accusing me of doing with his statements.

You might want to defend your good name and your statement from his willful misrepresentation.
229 posted on 01/13/2004 9:11:52 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Jorge"You obviously prefer to assign positions you feel most comfortable attacking to posters you disagree with...rather than address what they ACTUALLY post."

You are guilty of same. You've done it on this thread as well as many others. I'm just throwing it back to your side of the court.

You haven't thrown a single thing of substance back at me. All you've been able to manage is to copy and parrot statements I've already posted to you. Polly wanna a cracker?

The fact is, I was responding to a "Catholic" who told another poster he would prefer to a woman die from AIDS than commit the evil of having sex with a condom.

You accused me this, but can't find ANYTHING I've posted that compares to this statement.

You've had plenty of time to come up with something, ANYTHING I've posted..but have yet to do so.
You are a liar.

230 posted on 01/13/2004 9:21:28 PM PST by Jorge
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To: CAtholic Family Association
CAtholic Family Association,Hi,Nice to see you back,some missed you much,.I did to.You are giving me a headache,what priest did you talk too to respond to the thread of the Cardinal.
231 posted on 01/13/2004 9:27:46 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
johnb2004
Jorge is grossly and deceitfully misrepresenting what you said in post # 10, something he is accusing me of doing with his statements.

You might want to defend your good name and your statement from his willful misrepresentation.

ROFL! I posted the EXACT QUOTE from john2004 as well as the post he was responding to so there could be no mistake as to the context.

Your characterizing this as "grossly and deceitfully misrepresenting" by me is just too funny for words.

I would love to see his response.

I'll bet you anything he stands by his comments which I posted word for word. And not run from them as you have done.

232 posted on 01/13/2004 9:32:16 PM PST by Jorge
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To: CAtholic Family Association
johnb2004 Jorge is grossly and deceitfully misrepresenting what you said in post # 10, something he is accusing me of doing with his statements. You might want to defend your good name and your statement from his willful misrepresentation.

Come back johnny. The so-called "CAtholic Family Association" wants to dispute that your post disagreed with wives of HIV+ men using condoms. Even though that is what you said.

Obviously "CAtholic Family Association" thinks such a statement tarnishes your "good name". LOL

233 posted on 01/13/2004 9:41:43 PM PST by Jorge
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To: fatima
You are giving me a headache,what priest did you talk too to respond to the thread of the Cardinal.

Why do I need to speak to a priest? I know moral theology as well as many of our local diocesan priests, better than some. Also, many local priests are heterodox and not trustworthy. Do you feel I must consult a priest before offering an educated opinion on this cardinal's statements?

234 posted on 01/13/2004 9:45:47 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Jorge; johnb2004
a "Catholic" who told another poster he would prefer to a woman die from AIDS than commit the evil of having sex with a condom

He DID NOT tell another poster he would prefer a woman die from AIDS than commit the evil of having sex with a condom.

235 posted on 01/13/2004 9:48:05 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Do you feel I must consult a priest before offering an educated opinion on this cardinal's statements?

No. You must fast and pray that the Lord will show you the truth.

236 posted on 01/13/2004 9:50:31 PM PST by Jorge
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To: Jorge
who told another poster he would prefer to a woman die from AIDS than

He never said this. You are putting words in his mouth and twisting what he said. I prefer a woman never use a condom to prevent AIDS because it would be sinful. That DOES NOT mean I prefer her to die from AIDS.

It simply means I prefer her to abstain.

Stop putting words in others' mouths, son.

237 posted on 01/13/2004 9:51:57 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Yes.
238 posted on 01/13/2004 9:52:55 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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To: Jorge
You must fast and pray that the Lord will show you the truth.

He HAS shown me the Truth. That's why I'm sharing it with those whose intellects are darkened by the "wisdom" of this world and false YOPIOS doctrines.

239 posted on 01/13/2004 9:53:45 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: fatima
OK. I disagree.
240 posted on 01/13/2004 9:54:18 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: johnb2004
"I believe the issue here has nothing to do with condoms. It is part of an agenda."




YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
This Cardinal has an agenda alright, and it's certainly not along the lines of Catholic truth.

Just look at the last sentence in the article: He"has also called for flexibility and leniency for Catholics who divorce and then remarry without obtaining a church-sanctioned annulment, and has said he advocates women playing a larger role in the church."

Translation: "Let's just throw out the indissolubility of marriage, and while we're at it,
let's have women priests!"

It will be a cold day in hell before this "cardinal" gets what he wants.
241 posted on 01/13/2004 9:55:46 PM PST by Deo volente (God willing, Terri Schiavo will live.)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
He DID NOT tell another poster he would prefer a woman die from AIDS than commit the evil of having sex with a condom.

Then explain to us what this exchange means;

_____________________________

"think about it. Married people get aids from either preexisting sexual activity or from blood. Now in the context of marital sex with a spouse with aids, would you be opposed to condom usuage." 9 posted on 01/13/2004 10:42:06 AM EST by cajungirl

To: cajungirl "Yes. The act of contraception is intrinsically evil One may never commit an intrinsically evil act even if some limited good may come from it." 10 posted on 01/13/2004 11:10:17 AM EST by johnb2004 __________________________

The fact is you can't. He clearly says that it would be better for the woman to catch AIDS than to commit the evil of contraception.

242 posted on 01/13/2004 9:56:09 PM PST by Jorge
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To: fatima
Please see my post #136.

I have studied this issue extensively, especially when I wrote that article, which was published in a nationally circulated Catholic newspaper. I'm told it was even read in the Vatican at the time.

I know of no priest in my diocese who knows this issue or has studied it as much as I have. Why must I consult a priest to understand Catholic teaching on this issue or comment on an internet forum, when I have already been nationally published on this issue in a Catholic periodical?

243 posted on 01/13/2004 10:01:06 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Alberta's Child
Either the article is wrong, or the cardinal is a f#cking moron -- the Sixth Commandment is as follows: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

The RCC cuts and pastes scripture at will, perhaps by tomarrow, "thou salt not kill" will be number 9 in the RC "10 commandments".

244 posted on 01/13/2004 10:01:09 PM PST by realpatriot71 (legalize freedom!)
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To: Jorge; johnb2004
Then explain to us what this exchange means; He clearly says that it would be better for the woman to catch AIDS than to commit the evil of contraception.

No, he is saying that sex with a condom is not an option, since one may never commit an intrinsically evil act even if some limited good may come from it, therefore the only option is abstaining.

Until johnb2004 personally validates my interpretation or yours, you would be prudent to stop twisting his words and putting words in his mouth.

245 posted on 01/13/2004 10:04:50 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
"who told another poster he would prefer to a woman die from AIDS than "

He never said this. You are putting words in his mouth and twisting what he said.

Wrong. I posted his exact words. I didn't add or take anything away from his post. Anybody can go back and read it.

I prefer a woman never use a condom to prevent AIDS because it would be sinful. That DOES NOT mean I prefer her to die from AIDS. It simply means I prefer her to abstain. Stop putting words in others' mouths, son.

Huh? Now you are responding to what johnb2004 posted with "I said" responses?

Are you johnb2004?
You posts are getting stranger by the minute.

246 posted on 01/13/2004 10:06:10 PM PST by Jorge
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To: CAtholic Family Association
No, he is saying that sex with a condom is not an option, since one may never commit an intrinsically evil act even if some limited good may come from it, therefore the only option is abstaining.

Sexual relations with one's own spouse is "evil" in God's eyes if you ever dare use a condom to prevent the spread of AIDS?

What a strange concept of God and His standards of sexual morality.

No wonder people are leaving the Catholic Church in droves.

247 posted on 01/13/2004 10:13:13 PM PST by Jorge
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To: Jorge
Wrong. I posted his exact words. I didn't add or take anything away from his post.

BS. You ADDED to his exact words that "he'd rather a woman die from AIDS."

Anybody can go back and read it.

You are correct. And everyone who does knows that John never said "he'd rather a woman die from AIDS." You ADDED that to his words.

248 posted on 01/13/2004 10:13:54 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: Jorge
if you ever dare use a condom to prevent the spread of AIDS?

Since condoms DO NOT PREVENT THE SPREAD OF AIDS it would be immoral to counsel the woman to engage in suicidal acts.

Your "god" and my God are definitely two different entities.

Oh, one more thing. The population of the Catholic Church has increased here and abroad every year. Do a little research before you make such assinine statements.

249 posted on 01/13/2004 10:17:05 PM PST by Polycarp IV (http://www.cathfam.org/)
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To: CAtholic Family Association
Obedience ,I have been read and viewed by Vatican,Obedience
250 posted on 01/13/2004 10:20:19 PM PST by fatima (Karen ,Ken 4 ID,Jim-Go Eagles Go,)
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