Cardinal favours condoms to stop AIDS (leading candidates to succeed Pope John Paul)

The Guardian via SMH ^ | January 14, 2004 | John Hooper in Rome and Andrew Osborn in Brussels

[sinkspur]

Instead, you look to secular solutions for problems of the soul.

Problems of the SOUL? Trying to prevent the death of a mother is a problem of the soul? Tell her children that.

People need to hear the truth; eternity is at stake. If they can't hear it from an ordained representive of the Church of Christ, where can they hear it?

They need to hear the Truth applied to today's problems, and they need to see churchmen struggling with those problems. This is a tough situation, and to blithely dismiss it as a "problem of the soul" is, frankly, putting your head in the sand.

[sinkspur]

The whole premise of your argument is a lie: condoms do not provide 100% protection against the spread of AIDS. But you want to sell this hypothetical (?) family a lie.

Is 85% better than no protection, which is what she's got with nothing?

[sinkspur]

But you speak of death as if it's a bad thing that hasn't been defeated.

So why not walk in front of a truck?

[sinkspur]

Changing social mores is a solution that condemns a certain number of these women to certain death.

A large number, from the statistics Catholic Family Association provided.

So the answer is mortal sin over physical death?

Is an act performed under duress a mortal sin?

[sinkspur]

If what you suggest were actual circumstances, then the spouse would be perfectly free to use commensurate force to repel the aggressor. This force would not be morally evil. The use of a condom is always morally evil.

So, if necessary, she could kill him before using a condom?

[Petronski]

Is 85% better than no protection, which is what she's got with nothing?

No no no. The question is, is 15% better than nothing?

[sinkspur]

No no no. The question is, is 15% better than nothing?

Seems evident that it is. Unless you prefer she use a baseball bat.

[Petronski]

The question is, is 15% chance of getting AIDS better than no chance of getting AIDS?

And if the sex is non-consensual, it is rape...a baseball bat would be preferable, yes.

[sinkspur]

The question is, is 15% chance of getting AIDS better than no chance of getting AIDS?

That's not the question here. She cannot abstain; he won't let her. So, is some protection better than none?

[Petronski]

She cannot abstain; he won't let her.

If she cannot choose to abstain, the sex is not consensual. Why are you in such a hurry to put a condom in a rapists hand?

[lrslattery]

If what you suggest were actual circumstances, then the spouse would be perfectly free to use commensurate force to repel the aggressor. This force would not be morally evil. The use of a condom is always morally evil.

So, if necessary, she could kill him before using a condom?

Commensurate force does not necessarily equal killing. You are being completely disingenuous and appear to be unable to engage in a thoughtful discussion on Christian morality where people can learn exactly what the Church teaches.

I have tried to be charitable, in spite of the admonitions of others. But they, apparently, are correct and you do seem to be incapable of discussing issues in a manner fitting and proper to your clerical state, let alone as a rational human being.

[Petronski]

Commensurate force does not necessarily equal killing. You are being completely disingenuous and appear to be unable to engage in a thoughtful discussion on Christian morality where people can learn exactly what the Church teaches.

Congratulations, you have crystallized sinkspur perfectly.

[sinkspur]

Commensurate force does not necessarily equal killing.

If one is about to expose you to death, are you not able, if you have no other option, to protect your life?

You are being completely disingenuous and appear to be unable to engage in a thoughtful discussion on Christian morality where people can learn exactly what the Church teaches.

I'm trying to discuss what they Church teaches. You want to lecture me on what the Church teaches. I know what the Church teaches.

But they, apparently, are correct and you do seem to be incapable of discussing issues in a manner fitting and proper to your clerical state, let alone as a rational human being.

And you are, with all due respect, a bit sensitive, and apparently cannot engage in a give-and-take if it doesn't follow Robert's Rules of Order.

Good day.

[Tantumergo]

"...a baseball bat would be preferable, yes."

Might I suggest that a machete would be more "inculturated" and probably more scriptural as well:

Mt 18,8 "And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thy husband's member scandalizes thee, cut it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having a eunuch husband to enter into life, than having all the parts to be cast into hell fire."

From the Deacon Tantum ergo translation, copyright whatever.

[Petronski]

I'm trying to discuss what they Church teaches. You want to lecture me on what the Church teaches. I know what the Church teaches.

Ah, sinky, you 'know' what the Church teaches. But do you accept what the Church teaches?

Do you accept the letter and the spirit of Humanae Vitae?

[Petronski]

Ah, yes, the machete. Very good. You and I want to arm the woman in sinky's hypothetical so she can defend herself against rape, sinky want's to hand her a condom.

Thank you for the correction, btw. I doubt she has a Louisville Slugger on the wall in the rec room. LOL

[sinkspur]

Do you accept the letter and the spirit of Humanae Vitae?

I accept it and teach it.

[Clintons a commie]

Problems of the SOUL? Trying to prevent the death of a mother is a problem of the soul? Tell her children that.

If the issue of contraceptives isn't a "problem of the soul"-both of the individual, and society at large-then the Church shouldn't even be dealing with it at all. Using a contraceptive is, objectively speaking, always a mortal sin, so you're damn right it's a problem of the soul.

Instead of telling me to get my head out of the sand, maybe you'd better put yours in the clouds(ie, Heaven). For an ordained member of the Church, you don't seem to think about that very much(nor Hell, or grace, or purgatory, or the Blessed Mother, or the sufferings of Christ or...).

[Tantumergo]

"I'm trying to discuss what they Church teaches."

Admittedly it was more recent for me than it was for you, but I wondered if you remembered laying your hand on a book of the holy Gospels and making the following oaths?:

Nicene Creed...

Furthermore I embrace and uphold each and every doctrine concerning faith and morals which the Church has taught and declared in solemn definition or by ordinary teaching authority - and in the sense in which the Church has proposed such doctrine - especially the teaching concerning the mystery of the Holy Church of Christ, the Sacraments, the Sacrifice of the Mass and the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.

I, XXXXXXX have already presented to the Bishop my petition for ordination to the Diaconate. Now that the Ordination is near, I hereby testify and swear, after diligent consideration in the sight of God - Firstly, that in receiving this Order I am in no way driven by coercion or force or by any fear; but that I desire it eagerly and of my own accord, and wish for it with full freedom of will, since I know clearly and realise that I am truly called by God.

And I affirm that I am fully aware of all the duties, responsibilities etc. that are attached to this sacred Order; of my own free will I wish and intend to undertake these, and I am determined, with the help of God, to observe these most faithfully throughout my whole life.

Finally I sincerely promise that, in accord with the sacred Canons, I will comply most obediently with all that my Superiors require of me and with all that the Church's discipline demands; and that I am ready to give an example of virtue both in deed and in word, so that my undertaking of so great an office may indeed be worthy of reward from God.

This I promise; this I vow; this I swear; may God assist me, and these his holy Gospels which I touch with my hand.

[sinkspur]

For an ordained member of the Church, you don't seem to think about that very much(nor Hell, or grace, or purgatory, or the Blessed Mother, or the sufferings of Christ or...).

Translation: think like me or you ain't much of a Catholic.

Got it.