I DETEST THIS FILM ..WITH A PASSION [Christopher Hitchens on the Passion of the Christ]

The Mirror ^ | February 27, 2004 | Christopher Hitchens

[samtheman]

who lead Jesus to the Roman authorities?

The implication of this rhetorical question is exactly what.

[hellinahandcart]

What's a "snuff film?"

A snuff film is when one of the actors is actually murdered as part of the film. Naturally the actor doesn't know he's going to be killed.

There were lots of rumors about these films in the eighties, but I'm not sure it was ever proven that any really existed. I don't recall any arrests or trials in connection with any of them, anyway.

[Woahhs]

But we're not so quick to jump on any of those tendencies in Christianity. You say they don't exist. Bullsh1t. They exist. They are there.

And how significant are they when enemies have to scrape the walls to find them? Is it not self-evident to you the people you are refering to are such a vanishingly small minority that you insult the majority of us by giving credence to such punctilious nonsense?

[SauronOfMordor]

Moreover, whatever the Bible may say, the Roman authorities in Jerusalem were not minor officials in a Jewish empire, compelled to obey the orders of a gang of bloodthirsty rabbis. It was Rome that was boss. Indeed, Pontius Pilate was later recalled by the Emperor Tiberius for the extreme brutality with which he treated the Jewish inhabitants (and you had to be quite cruel to get Tiberius to raise his eyebrows).

He doesn't get it. Empire is a business. You want to collect as much tribute and taxes for Rome as you can, while minimizing the expense of keeping lots of troops around to keep the population quiet. Any governer who can't manage to keep things quiet and profitable gets the boot. If crucifying Jesus makes the local religious leaders happy and cooperative, then the path of least resistance is to crucify Jesus

[AppyPappy]

He is an atheist, however, and remains a passionate partisan of that belief.

Negative. He is a pre-Christian. True Atheists don't normally carry this much interest in Christianity. He's a Seeker.

Been there, done that.

[samtheman]

do you know why you don't hear ME condemning the statement? because I DON"T KNOW ANYONE THAT BELIEVES THAT THE JEWS SHOULD BE BLAMED FOR KILLING JESUS. honestly. i grew up in a largely catholic community attended catholic schools, as do my children today, and NO ONE BELIEVES that. our belief, and that of the Church is that Christ died for all of us. so you are asking me to condemn something that is too ridiculous to even contemplate.

Well, then I applaud your group, your friends, your church. But just because you are in good company --- and you are, you definitely are --- doesn't mean the idea isn't out there. It's not the biggest thing going in the Christian world. Support for Israel is much bigger. Much much bigger. And I've pointed that out hundreds of times in discussions in FR. I'm not a newbie here.

But the idea that "the Jews killed Jesus" is alive and well in the USA and Europe and it should be denounced. And now, because of this movie, is the time to denounce it. Loudly. Openly.

[keats5]

"Then he ran a series of screenings for right-wing fundamentalists only, and refused to show any tapes to anyone who wasn't a religious nut."

And the point of this article is religious intolerance?

[longtermmemmory]

too consumed with hatred to WANT to get it.

he is just silly. Laugh at his silliness and move on.

Sometimes the seeds land on the rocks.

[AppyPappy]

But the idea that "the Jews killed Jesus" is alive and well in the USA

So is the idea we never went to the moon and that people are walking around with alien implants in their body. It's a FRINGE item.

[Qwinn]

Back up. He asked a question. How about you answer it first?

See, one thing that's been going on is that a lot of the critics of the movie are claiming that Jews had -nothing- to do with Christ's death, that it's a complete fiction. That's total revisionism.

I don't think "the Jews killed Christ". I do believe Jews killed Christ, though. Just like some Romans did. I went on about 15 posts on another thread the other day pointing out the difference, and how ridiculous it is to extend guilt down generations.

But you know what, samtheman? Have you heard anyone, -anyone-, utter a protest when someone blames all Christians for the Holocaust? Or all Christians for the pogroms? That happens constantly, in the major media, every single day. Over and over. THAT is just as much blood libel. And no one says a word.

My rant on that other thread was about how ridiculous the notion of laying guilt on an entire group is, AND that it is -hardly- limited to the Jews. Christians get it constantly.

And isn't the entire fury at Christians right now just another symptom? The people criticizing this film RIGHT NOW are acting as if the majority of Christians conducted pogroms in their youth and haven't come to grips with their guilt yet.

Now you tell me, how the HELL is blaming all Christians for the pogroms of 2 centuries ago ANY different from blaming ALL Jews for killing Christ? Yet, in these rants and screams about fears that Christians are going to watch this movie and conduct another pogrom, isn't that EXACTLY what they're doing?

I'll wait on an answer for that.

And by the way, I'm not Christian, I'm agnostic.

Qwinn

[xsmommy]

i believe you are correct about the idea being alive in Europe, but less so in the US. what percentage of people do you think believe such a thing? and how is this verifiable?

[xsmommy]

another analogy is to include blaming all whites for slavery. my grandparents all came from eastern europe, but there will be those lunatics who claim that merely being white makes one culpable for slavery. there are lunatics of every stripe. it is not the majority or even a significant MINORITY view of anyone.

[samtheman]

And how significant are they when enemies have to scrape the walls to find them? Is it not self-evident to you the people you are refering to are such a vanishingly small minority that you insult the majority of us by giving credence to such punctilious nonsense?

Don't be so thin-skinned. I'm not insulting anybody. I'm talking about the opportunity this movie --- and its publicity -- presents to us. And opportunity to demonstrate to the Islamic moderates (for example, our new friends in Iraq) how to behave towards extremists within the group. Why can't you just denounce them and be done with it? Why argue with me about the obvious?

I'm reminded of Bill O'Reilly (who supports this film, by the way, and I support him, by the way) when he's trying to get a simple admission from the ACLU that child pornography is bad. They'll argue this point and that point and another point but they won't simply say it's wrong.

I am not comparing you to the ACLU and I am not comparing this issue to child pornography (although somebody did here in a post that I found absolutely illogical) but I am saying that it seems like some people here are having a hard time just saying the idea that "the Jews killed Jesus" is wrong. Just say it's wrong.

[Qwinn]

Oh, one more thing:

Historically, do you know how many times a Jew has been killed in the United States after a passion play?

Answer: Zero.

In the light of my last post, please, explain to me how exactly the furor against the Passion and the screeches of anti-Semitism are justified unless this is an act of blood-libel against Christians.

Qwinn

[hellinahandcart]

Gibson Receives Standing Ovation on Leno

[ejo]

Hitchens and Rooney should commiserate together over that beer, scotch is too good for them!!!!

[samtheman]

i believe you are correct about the idea being alive in Europe, but less so in the US. what percentage of people do you think believe such a thing? and how is this verifiable?

I don't know. And so what? Why should it matter? The subject is certainly in the media now so now is the time to make the denunciation. Let's denounce it and be done with it and move on to other things: like defending Christianity from the commie-left... and re-electing a president who will help us do that.

[P.O.E.]

Reminds me of that scene in the movie where, after the crucifixion, the devil howls in his wilderness.

[xsmommy]

it should be denounced. And now, because of this movie, is the time to denounce it. Loudly. Openly.

where? to whom? i would gladly denounce such an idiotic statement and sentiment were i to hear it or even infer or hear it hinted at by anyone anywhere. But can't you see the folly of going around making such a loud and open pronouncement when it isn't an issue or a thought that has even crossed people's minds?

[Americathy]

As one writer that I read often said, "Both Jew and Gentile—hey, that covers all mankind, doesn't it?—lent a hand in the death of the Messiah." No Christian I know believes the Jews as a people should be blamed any more than the Italians (or the Romanians, Spanish, French etc). But the Antidefamation League wants to actually change the historical record, which is really dangerous. The facts are: The Romans killed Christ, the Jews killed Christ, we all killed Christ.