Posted on 05/09/2004 6:44:14 PM PDT by demkicker
A furious President Bush has demanded to see all photos and videos showing abuse of Iraq detainees, a senior White House source said late Sunday.
"The president was blindsided by the first TV images, he will not be blindsided again," the source, who demanded anonymity, explained to the DRUDGE REPORT.
The president has instructed Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to present him with him all known images that could further deepen the crises.
Monday editions of the NEW YORKER feature photos of a dog attacking a naked Iraqi detainee at Abu Ghraib prison.
President Bush was aware of the photo, the top source claims.
The White House is preparing for more fallout, and leaks from lawmakers.
The Pentagon is considering the possibility of showing the unseen material to members of Congress.
"It's clear the moment the evidence is sent to the Congress, we will see a new feeding frenzy in the media."
Your perspective is one of a man who really hasn't ever been a man in so many ways...don't try to tell me about how soldiers in combat are seeing this. You have absolutley no background or experience in the subject to even begin to know anything about the subject.
It's too bad you get your kicks from such strange places...prisoners naked on a leash?
My perspective is correct on this topic. You forget, I am the one who was in the Persian Gulf in Army uniform...not you. You need to stick with what you know best; you're out of your league on this topic, brother...too bad you don't understand your own limitations...
What is THIS supposed to mean? Who made you judge of who is or isn't a man? And how would you know what I have or haven't been?
Why are you resorting to personal insults instead of addressing what I posted?
I could easily post on FR that you have NEVER been a real woman in so many ways simply because you disagree with me but I wouldn't think of stooping to such things.
In any case I think you need explain, apologize or attempt to rectify what you posted.
I'm giving you this opportunity. OK?
don't try to tell me about how soldiers in combat are seeing this. You have absolutley no background or experience in the subject to even begin to know anything about the subject.
Huh? Where did I try to tell you "how soldiers in combat are seeing this"?
Show me. You can't do it.
The fact is I never made such an argument anywhere in my posts to you.
It's too bad you get your kicks from such strange places...prisoners naked on a leash?
This is amazing. We just had a video put out today of some Iraqi kooks chopping the head off a 26 year of American contractor.
But you're all uptight and shocked at a photo of a woman with a prisoner on a leash and that anybody dare to laugh at it.
Well guess what..a lot of people laughed at it including a Govt guy I work with who is a Major in the Army and just got back from combat in Iraq.
Guess you want to imply all of us who laughed are perverts?
Incredible.
My perspective is correct on this topic. You forget, I am the one who was in the Persian Gulf in Army uniform...not you. You need to stick with what you know best; you're out of your league on this topic, brother...too bad you don't understand your own limitations...
Are you trying to make me laugh on purpose or what?
You have either been unable or unwilling to address ANYTHING I actually posted to you....but have instead resorted to personal insults and sanctamonious platitudes that amount to John Kerry-like debating skills. "How DARE you disagree with ME. Do you KNOW who I AM? I served in Vietnam !!!!!!(subsitute Iraq)"
I can understand weak debating skills, that perhaps you have no answers to my challenges..but the personal insults?
What is that all about? What's going on with you?
I hope you weren't using this quote in a John Kerry-debate- strategy that interprets it as meaning nobody who's served in the military has the right to disagree with somebody who has. If so, it's a foolish insult to 95% of Americans who didn't serve which will get you nowhere.
I just wondered what it had to do with what I posted.
Are you saying that I cannot defend our military men or speak up on their behalf because I haven't served?
Well, for somebody who you consider less than a man, who has no right to speak on the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal because I didn't wear the uniform like you...I'd say I just did a pretty good job of kicking butt in this debate.
You didn't ATTEMPT to refute or EVEN address any of my challenges to your posts. NOT ONE.
All you did was post personal insults and attempt to insulate yourself from criticism by parroting the John Kerry blow-hard platitudes "I served in Vietnam!(Iraq). How dare you question me?!!"
Speaking of "limitations", surely you can do better than this.
George - I find this pretty interesting. You claim she didn't respond to your arguments when what she did is take issue with your comment about 'laughing' when you saw the photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by some Americans. This is NOT a laughing matter in any shape or form.
Your challenges were way off the mark...listen to the testimony before the Senate and read the official reports...they back up everything she said. In particular; read Senator Lindsay Graham's questioning and statement ...
What you find humorous - most of us who have served on active duty with honor in Peace and War - find disgusting.
As you seem to consider yourself some type of excellent debater I find it strange that Katherine is the one who was in the Army in the Persian Gulf War - she is the one who is a college History instructor - she is the one who was a U.S. Congressional aide - and now she is the one who is the Republican candidate for a South Carolina Senate seat in the 2004 elections, and may be going to Iraq later this summer. At the expense of sounding rude - just what are you doing for the cause?
I share her disappointment with your sense of humor over what I consider (along with most 'real' soldiers) dishonorable conduct by some of our military. However, I don't lose track for one moment about who we are fighting - but, my honor as a soldier is not up for modification by my enemies dishonor...
I have been the target and received threats from Islamic Militants because of my public stand on this War from my writings and personnal lectures that I have given on the topic. But I don't reduce myself to have them become my teacher on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong.'
We are fighting against these 'animals' who would slaughter us if given the chance - but, we are not them...
Hope you are well...
May 5, 2004
From the Frontlines: A Combat Soldier's View of the Iraq Prison Abuse Case
The National Center for Public Policy Research this week has posted online two letters received from a soldier, Spc. Joe Roche, who presently serving on the front lines in Iraq.
The first letter provides a glimpse of the attitude of rank-and-file combat soldiers to the news of abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Iraq.
Excerpts:
"I'm at a place right now where there are thousands of U.S. soldiers. I went to breakfast and dinner at the KBR dining hall here. It is huge, hundreds of soldiers gathered to eat. Around us are large-screen tvs, and yes, the news was mostly about the prison abuse. Everyone is so angry. I mean, angry! It is as if those soldiers hurt us more than the enemies here in Iraq have. I don't think that if that RPG last week had hit and killed us in my hummwv, there would have been any of the damage done to our cause here that those soldiers have done."
"As you know, we have done raids and captured some of the top terrorists in Baghdad over the past months. My sister has some dramatic pictures of at least one raid. In all of those, we handled the enemy w/ respect. Our big bosses always pressed us on the Geneva Convention rules before raids, and we have taken many classes on ROEs (rules of engagement) and on the proper treatment of prisoners. There are rosters w/ all our names on them for these classes because dealing w/ prisoners is major concern of our leadership. My battalion has caught car bombers, weapons' smugglers, and those laying IEDs to kill us. We've even captured in raids those who fired mortars at our base on Baghdad Island. And EVERY TIME, we treated them w/ respect and took care to give them full medical treatment, food and clothing."
"Let me recount to you a story One day [two American soldiers] were hit by an IED in a hummwv... They got the one soldier out who was badly injured, but the fire was so bad that they couldn't get his friend out. They don't know if he was alive as he burned, but they had to watch. Now, that street that this happened on was one where they had built schools, improved much infrastructure, many many projects to make it a better and safer place. ...When the IED blew, across the street were some of those very same neighborhood people cheering. They cheered as our fellow American burned and the other one was dragged out. Now, these are tankers, and they have big BIG guns, and all were ready to fire. The soldiers, all of them seeing the tragedy of the attack, and seeing the sick group cheering across the street, they all held their composure. No one fired a shot, no one did anything inappropriate. They did exactly as they were trained."
http://www.nationalcenter.org/2004_05_01_BlogArchive.html#10836356378620677 online.
The letters' author, Spc. Joe Roche, serves with the 16th Engineering Battalion of the 1st Armored Division, which is part of a quick deployment force tasked with dealing with sudden eruptions by enemy forces within Iraq. More information about Joe, other commentaries he has written, and information (including an address and suggested items) about sending care packages to soldiers fighting in Iraq can be accessed at http://www.nationalcenter.org/RochePage.html online.
The National Center for Public Policy Research is a non-partisan, conservative/free-market think-tank established in 1982 and located on Capitol Hill. It can be visited at http://www.nationalcenter.org online.
------------ take care,
Van
George - I find this pretty interesting. You claim she didn't respond to your arguments when what she did is take issue with your comment about 'laughing' when you saw the photos of Iraqi prisoners being abused and humiliated by some Americans.
Read my statement above again.
I NEVER said she didn't take issue with my original post about "laughing" at the photos.
(If she didn't do so, this exchange would have never taken place to begin with.)
What she DIDN'T respond to was any of my "CHALLENGES" to her posts. All she did was resort to some really inexplicable personal attacks..and NOTHING else of substance.
This is NOT a laughing matter in any shape or form.
Really? I wonder why I don't feel bad about laughing about it then?
Your challenges were way off the mark...
Are they really? I'm still waiting for you or Kate to quote anything I've posted and show me where ANY of it is "off the mark".
You have yet to do so.
listen to the testimony before the Senate and read the official reports...they back up everything she said. In particular; read Senator Lindsay Graham's questioning and statement ...
I have always been a fan of Linsay Graham but I am really disappointed that he has joined the hand-wringing hysterics when it comes to this prisoner abuse scandal.
This is EXACTLY what our enemies want. They want the actions of a few to stain the entire war effort and undermine American resolve on the war on terrorism.
Graham's playing right into the enemy's hands.
What you find humorous - most of us who have served on active duty with honor in Peace and War - find disgusting.
Since when do you speak for most of those who have served? I have talked about this with others who have served, who have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, or were lifers in the US military and they ALL agree with me
As you seem to consider yourself some type of excellent debater I find it strange that Katherine is the one who was in the Army in the Persian Gulf War - she is the one who is a college History instructor - she is the one who was a U.S. Congressional aide - and now she is the one who is the Republican candidate for a South Carolina Senate seat in the 2004 elections, and may be going to Iraq later this summer. At the expense of sounding rude - just what are you doing for the cause?
Huh? With all due respect this just another version of the John Kerry defense "I have this degree, I have that experience, I have been in Vietnam...HOW DARE you question me!!
What a cop out. And how sad that somebody with such a great resume is unable to address simple challenges to her posts and needs to resort to personal attacks and insults instead.
Actually it's rather pathetic.
Perhaps I should respond to those who challenge me by telling them that I graduated first in my college class with a perfect 4.0 GPA.
Newsflash. Nobody is impressed with these things if you are unable to articulate a coherant response to their posts.
I share her disappointment with your sense of humor over what I consider (along with most 'real' soldiers) dishonorable conduct by some of our military.
Since when do you speak for MOST "real soldiers"? You need to lighten up.
Again, I work with Govt employees who are in the military, who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and have been lifers in the US military.
NONE of them share your "disappointment" with my sense of humor over Iraqi terrorists prisoners being put on leashes and made to bark whenever the American's whistled at them. In fact I know you and don't even believe that you haven't laughed yourself at this juvenile nonsense.
However, I don't lose track for one moment about who we are fighting - but, my honor as a soldier is not up for modification by my enemies dishonor...
Then you should agree with me that our enemies' attempts to use this prison scandal to dishoner our ENTIRE military and America's moral authority in this war is WRONG.
That has been my postition from the beginning.
And for this I am accused of being "less than a man" in many ways and some kind of pervert who likes to see naked Iraqis?
Kate owes me an apology BIG TIME.
You really don't get it...I not laughing at all; and if you work with or know military people (I'd be curious about their MOS) who share your idea that the abuse of prisoners is a laughing matter; then they are clueless; and I have to ask you - what would you and your friends do to these 'soldiers' who treated these prisoners in the way they did - if you were the Chief of Staff or the CG?
Let me try one more time to have you see this from a critical perspective:
The military began this investigation last winter and began to take appropriate action long before CBS or the media knew anything about the incident. Was the military correct in it's investigation and findings that the conduct of these guards was wrong and action needed to be taken against the individuals?
If the prison abuse was wrong and disgusting long before the media 'frenzy' how could the same actions and abuse suddenly become 'humorous' and excusable afterwards?
Can bad conduct become good conduct on our part because of the media? If it can then we have no morals, and everything becomes a case for situational ethics...
Everything is clear to me,now. Lyndie was having multiple sex partners. She's a "two-bagger". The prisoners were not being abused or humiliated. They were all just waiting for a turn to romp with Lyndie and the bags on their heads were just in case Lyndie's fell off. ;o) 64 posted on 05/13/2004 1:28:51 AM PDT by Free Trapper (One with courage is often a majority.) [ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]
I even found this amusing...bye!
You really don't get it...I not laughing at all;
You're right I don't get it.
Because I've personally heard you laugh at things far worse than this. For example, in reference to a bunch of left wing protesters on TV you once said the police should throw a few grenades into the crowd and you laughed about it.
But me laughing about leashes put on Iraqi POWS and making them bark like dogs, or some girl posing, pretending like she's shooting the genitals of a naked Iraqi, is highly offensive to you. Even though no one was hurt or killed.
I don't get you at all.
and if you work with or know military people (I'd be curious about their MOS) who share your idea that the abuse of prisoners is a laughing matter; then they are clueless;
I think the opposite is true. One of them, a Government inspector for the military who I work with, is a Major in the Army and just returned from Iraq.
He summed it up nicely saying that what is shown in the photos is NOTHING compared to what goes on in war and all the hysteria being generated is totally blown out of proportion due to politics in an election year.
Here's some quotes that emphasize this point;
*A representative of the Iraqi National Congress when asked about the pictures that are being broadcast of mistreatment at the Abu Ghraib prison, the Iraqi noted that his countrymen have available video of torture practiced in Iraqi prisons by Saddam's torturers. They buy and sell the videos on the street. They show dogs eating prisoners alive and prisoners being put in shredders. Our guards, devotees I presume of Hustler magazine, were mere amateurs, slaves to infantile sex.*
We have Teddy Kennedy claiming the American soldiers have simply taken over Saddam's torture chambers, ignoring the fact that Saddam fed people through shredders, dropped in vats of acid, chopped off fingers and tongues etc. and filled mass graves with over 300,000 Iraqi victims.
But the REAL evil is American prison guards making Iraqi POWs wear women's underwear and engage in degrading sex acts. RIGHT!
This media and leftist hysteria over the pictures at the Abu Ghraib prison is distorted and unbalanced totally beyond comprehension.
and I have to ask you - what would you and your friends do to these 'soldiers' who treated these prisoners in the way they did - if you were the Chief of Staff or the CG?
They should get whatever's coming to them under the law.
But the idea that I can't laugh about any stupid act that happens to be illegal when nobody was actually physically harmed of killed, is just silly.
You believe who you want, then. That Major friend of yours if full of crap and not much of an officer if he thought it was funny. Who am I to speak? Check my Military and Congressional credentials - I use my real name here on Free Republic...You really don't know me very well. We live in very different worlds.
I'm just thankful you and people like you who get a good laugh out of those 'harmless' photos are not in charge of our military or this country.
Funny, none of the people in Congress came out of yesterdays session laughing...
Nite...
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