Analyzing The 2nd Amendment

OUTDOORSBEST ^ | July 16, 2004 | Don B. Kates

[ArmyBratproud]

"...,the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

It does not say state...it says PEOPLE.

Like ya said....their Argument does not hold water.

It also reads "...keep and bear Arms,<"

Does not say that we are limited to certain Arms.

[the OlLine Rebel]

I guess it depends on what you believe can be used to overthrow! ;-)

My gut reaction - no, you are not wrong.

But I'm afraid you think we could use just our firearms to actually overthrow a gov!

BTW, no disrespect meant here. Partly I'm getting confused as to who said what! Always good to find another RevWar "fan"!

[12.7mm]

You mean it doesnt have to do with the hunting sports?

[the OlLine Rebel]

Collective-right ping! ;-)

[rjsimmons]

Quote
Do you think the Second Amendment also applies to State and local governments?

Excellent question. One that the Bill of Rights mentions in the 10th Amendment.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Each State's own Constitution (or I should say, the majority of the States) contains a clause similiar to the Federal Bill of Rights. Some are even more permissive.

[Zavien Doombringer]

I don't think with our civilian arms we could "overthrow" or government if it did go that route.

With our arms pulling the vote lever and voices, we could. But I am afraid America has become to "dumbed down for that". People do not know what liberty or Freedom are. Both different, but go hand in hand. People now want the government to take care of them, not to fend for themselves.

On the "arms" issue.

I believe we haven't been attacked by terrorist like the rest of the world, is because we are an "armed" populace. We have more civilins with guns than any other country, besides Switzerland and Isreal(the exception).

[Dead Corpse]

Privateers were utilized as sea-going malitia. The Letters of M&R were nothing more than authorizing them to use "piracy" against pirates, the British Fleet, or any other enemies we faced before putting together a formidable Navy.

This would be pretty much the same thing as the FedGov hiring bounty hunters to go after Osama.

Pretty much, although different in mission, to temporarily deputizing civilians to help with a county law enforcement effort.

[Ken H]

Do you think the Second Amendment also applies to State and local governments?

Excellent question. One that the Bill of Rights mentions in the 10th Amendment.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Each State's own Constitution (or I should say, the majority of the States) contains a clause similiar to the Federal Bill of Rights. Some are even more permissive.

Are you saying that State and local governments are bound by the Second Amendment or not bound by it?

[Dead Corpse]

Some are even more permissive.

And on the RKBA Rights issue, some are non-existant. This does not mean that those living in those States are not covered by the Supremacy Clause in the US Constitution.

[robertpaulsen]

"but still mean the same to those in the know"

Doesn't "arms" have a military connotation?

For example, a military person would say that he heard "small-arms fire". A civilian would say he heard "gunfire".

Very specific language, indeed.

[rjsimmons]

QuoteDoesn't "arms" have a military connotation? For example, a military person would say that he heard "small-arms fire". A civilian would say he heard "gunfire". Very specific language, indeed.

Arms has come to mean weapons of any and every sort. Read:Arms Race. In the military, Arms is specifically man-portable, anti-personnel. Ordnance is artillery and delivered weaponry, such as Dragon, AT-4, Stinger, TOW, Mk type bombs, etc.

[Zavien Doombringer]

Doesn't "arms" have a military connotation?

I guess it could by todays standards.

In the 18th century, "Arms" were any weapon for defense.

Pole-Arms, Side Arms...etc.

In the words of Paul Revere on his famous ride, "to arms, to arms, the British are coming!"...He was speaking, nay, yelling to the common citizen.

[Eastbound]

"The right to bear arms includes a right to carry them but not concealed."

Right. It says right there: ' . . . the right to bear arms, but not concealed, shall not be infringed.'

That clears that up.

Actually, it says ' . . . the right to bear arms, but not concealed or ugly-looking, shall not be infringed.'

Which was amended again to read, '. . . the right to bear arms, but not concealed or ugly-looking, or exceeding 49 caliber, shall not be infringed.'

Again, amemded to read, ' . . . the right to bear arms, except on Monday, but not concealed or ugly-looking, or exceeding 49 caliber, shall not be infringed.'

Later amended to read: ' . . . the right to bear arms, except during the month of December, but not concealed or ugly-looking, or exceeding 49 caliber, shall not be infringed.'

Amended again to read: ' . . . the right to bear arms, except during years ending with an even number and all months which are spelled with an a,e,i,o, or u; but not concealed or ugly-looking, or exceeding 49 caliber, shall not be infringed.

[rjsimmons]

Quote
Are you saying that State and local governments are bound by the Second Amendment or not bound by it?

That issue is being addressed constantly with the SCOTUS and the District Courts throughout these United States.
My take is that the Bill of Rights says to keep hands off.

[Zavien Doombringer]

I forgot to mention, in todays newspapers, we see "intruder 'armed' with (you add your weapon of choice)...killed...." and so on...

[RKV]

I think we are getting side-tracked. The intent of the 2nd Amendment (as I read it) was to 1) provide a necessary institution (the militia) for national security and 2) to prevent the government from disarming the people (who make up the militia). What does a militia do from a constitutional perspective? 1) It defends us from foreign invasion 2) it ensures the enforcement of our laws and 3) provides an offsetting power to the government's army in the event that the government should endanger our liberties. Whatever weapons needed to perform those missions are what is protected (simple analysis, I know, but logical and I believe faithful to the historical meaning of the BOR).

[Dead Corpse]

From etymonline.com

arm (2) - "weapon," 1300, from O.Fr. armes (pl.), from L. arma "weapons," lit. "tools, implements (of war)," from PIE base *ar- "fit, join." The notion seems to be "that which is fitted together." Meaning "heraldic insignia" (in coat of arms, etc.) is 1330; originally they were borne on shields of fully armed knights or barons. The verb meaning "to furnish with weapons" is from 1205. Arms race first attested 1936.

[Dead Corpse]

Excellent summation.

[rjsimmons]

Quote
Privateers were utilized as sea-going malitia. The Letters of M&R were nothing more than authorizing them to use "piracy" against pirates, the British Fleet, or any other enemies we faced before putting together a formidable Navy. This would be pretty much the same thing as the FedGov hiring bounty hunters to go after Osama. Pretty much, although different in mission, to temporarily deputizing civilians to help with a county law enforcement effort.

True, but they considered what they were getting. In deputizing the vessel and crew (which is the defacto setting for the letters), they knew that they would be bringing along the deck guns. Kind of like granting letters of marque to a group that owned armour. You get the main gun along with the crew, even though you didn't specifically ask for it.

[nuke_road_warrior]

Instead of Privateers, which after all could be considered as naval auxiliaries, look at the fur trade in the 1800's to 1840's. Many of the fur companies armed keel boats with swivel guns and used field guns at their trading forts. Admittedly these were relatively small bore, but they clearly are not SMALL arms. These weapons were purchased privately by individuals or companies, and were not in any way associated with local or state militias or the federal government.