Explosive Found in Wreckage of Second Russian Jet

ABC News ^ | 8/2/04

[LonghornFreeper]

>>You kill innocents, you should die and go to Hell.

With that statement, you have condemned not only the Chechen terrorists but large parts of the Russian military as well.

The Russians killed were civilians. So were the people of Dresden, Germany, where allied firebombing killed 100,000 in one night. The point is that "civlians" in a nation at war with another nation are not necessarily immune to attack. The Russians have tortured, slaughtered, and raped thousands of Chechen civilians, going all they way back to Stalin's time. This is very different from the battle between the US and Al Queda, or Israel and Palestine, where we make extroardinary efforts to only target enemies, not civlians.

When Russians go into a village "looking for terrorists" they kill dozens, and beat and torture hundreds more, many of whom have no connection to terrorism. The US and Israel do not do this.

[Long Cut]

Some comments here you might want to respond to.

[dimk]

World didn't give care when Grozny was leveled by massed russian artillery in first Chechen war(some pictures more resemble Stalingrad). It didn't care when civilians were killed on mass scale all over Chechnya.

Truth is nobody will ever care about what is happening in Chechnya except Chechens and Russians. Its too far and the place has really no significance to anyone except people living there.

If you follow what is happening there you will see that rebels kill many more Russian soldiers/police then they kill civilians. Russian troops come under attack in Chechnya almost daily and their losses are much higher then anything United states is suffering in Iraq. None of it is reported since Russia has no free press

Difference between US and AlQaeda vs Russians and Chechens is that United states did not not bomb and ravage Saudi arabia, Egypt, Jordan or whatever other country that most of the alQaeda operatives come from. America soldiers did not rape any woman of any age that they saw. They didn't line up prisoners and then crush them with tanks alive. Now Russians did all that and more. Chechens are no angels either. They killed/maimed civilians, sawed off heads, killed russian pensioneers in Grozny for no better reason then that they were russian and did 100 other "nice" things. alQaeda gripe with US is ideology and religion thats what they kill for. Chechens kill in revenge and just to get rid off Russians once and for all.

There are no real "good" guys in that war anymore. If there were any good guys on Chechen side they are long dead. And Russians were never "good" to begin with.

How do people fight back question was asked. Answer is by any means necessary. If someone comes to your city kills you neighbors, rapes their children are you going to be nice? Israelis waged their own terrorist campaign against British to gain independence. Can you blame them? They had no choice and same is true of Chechens.

[Moderate right-winger]

There is nothing much that Russia can do, even with their best efforts.

[Long Cut]

BTW, what's the mood of the citizenry over your way?

[Long Cut]

"One cannot condone terrorist acts. On the other hand how does a nation that has been ravaged by it's larger neighbor fight back?"

"By declaring independence and shooting the neighbor's soldiers. If one has to resort to "terrorism" then your cause is not just."

Spot on, PM.

If a "cause" can only be fought for by murdering bystanders and unarmed civilians for publicity, it is by definition invalid.

The "cause" at that point is only an excuse for wanton murder, and a convenient rationalization for psychopaths.

Such murder, no matter the "cause", automatically invalidates that "cause", and is deserving of everything it brings down on the heads of the murderers.

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

This election, whether it's admitted or not, is entirely about the war on Islamofacism.

It would be great if this were true. Unfortunately, less than 30% of the population has minimal awareness of the islamist threat we face. Sadly, many thousands more will die before the others wake up. For now, the ecltion is between the 30% or less who "get it", the 30% or less socialist whack-jobs, and the 40% mush heads in the middle.

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

RDX was also found in/on TWA flt 800??? but they (clinton) said no it was normal??

I recall them saying that it was residue from using the craft to train bomb sniffing dogs earlier. I thought then that this explanation was fishy, but media played along and the sheeple bought in.

Isn't hexogen the bomb-making material of choice of the Chechnyan al-queda? Didn't they blow up some buildings with it in the late 1990's? I wonder if it will be used to demo buildings here before long. I understand it loooks like sugar.

[KC_for_Freedom]

How do people fight back question was asked. Answer is by any means necessary. If someone comes to your city kills you neighbors, rapes their children are you going to be nice? Israelis waged their own terrorist campaign against British to gain independence. Can you blame them? They had no choice and same is true of Chechens.

From your mouth to G-ds ears. Unfortunately this gives the more powerful Russians a license to level Chechenia. (What ever it takes to stop the carnage.) Sometimes this is the best outcome, to end the war by the utter defeat of the enemy. And unfortunately for your sensitivities, the stronger will prevail. This happened in the American West where the US military confronted and defeated the Indians. There may be no right or wrong, only an end to the violence.

[Mad_Tom_Rackham]

I think the tampon bomb is the big threat on commercial aircraft these days........

Looks like pre-fight security check in is going to get more interesting. When the TSA starts advertising for OBGYN's we will know for sure.

[BagCamAddict]

I don't think they ever disclosed that info, did they? (other than vague references)

[BagCamAddict]

Was that "unclaimed female body" ever claimed? In a story a day or two ago, all the bodies from the first plane were claimed except for one female body.

[LibWhacker]

If someone comes to your city kills you neighbors, rapes their children are you going to be nice?

So it's okay to kill innocent people that had nothing to do with those crimes?

Stop defending the barbarians.

[Squantos]

Sounds like she went to pieces huh........:o)

A case of explosive vapors no doubt.....

[Squantos]

When we prepare for everything they'll just do something else...... Islamakazi's have to be delt such a horrific blow that they'll start making small cars and awesome electronics vs war........:o)

[VOA]

I've been wondering why the entire media has been soft peddling this story.

Because the atheist journalists might remember they have to fly on occasion.

Maybe they think that not reporting this as terrorist acts will
discourage other Islamic delinquents from blowing up more jets.

Of course, they may have been hoping that they could find some angle to pin
the deed on Serbs/Slavic terrorists.

(e.g., the conversion of Islamic terrorists in the book "The Sum of All Fears" to
non-Islamics in the movie version)

[SauronOfMordor]

Fighting back by killing innocents is sufficiently low that I will not question anything Putin chooses to do at this point.

Machiavelli once said "Do not do your enemy a small injury". I.e., do not injure your enemy enough that you've pissed him off, but not enough to affect the enemy's ability to retaliate.

Rome understood this in their dealings with Carthage, where they finally took Carthage, killed the men, enslaved the surviving women and children and dispersed them throughout the Empire, and finally leveled Carthage and spread salt on the site so nothing would ever grow there again. They had no further trouble with Carthage

The Muslims will be pissed off and in the mood to kill Russians as long as there are any left alive

[SauronOfMordor]

There is nothing much that Russia can do, even with their best efforts.

Unless the Russian people get sufficiently pissed that they allow another Stalin to come to power. Converting the entire region into a sterile wasteland is well within the abilities of the Russian strategic forces

[freeperfromnj]

Maybe they think that not reporting this as terrorist acts will discourage other Islamic delinquents from blowing up more jets.

That's the key: Islamic. The sooner the civilized world realizes this the better chance we have at fighting this WOT. It ticks me off when they try to distinguish between different terror groups. They all have the same common denominator: radical Islam. Take the two two guys they caught yesterday with plans to blow up a NYC subway. Officials claim there is no known connection to Al Qaeda. So if they don't carry their AQ card in their wallets, they don't qualify as terrorists?

[silversky]

As Putin once said: "There will be neither revolution nor counterrevolution." Stalin AIN'T coming back (thankfully mad men like him will stay in Georgia). The Russian Bear ain't gonna get mad. They've been through much worse - unfazed and unafraid. There is not going to be persecution of peaceful civilians - Muslims or others. You'll see the same methodical extermination of terrorists that has been going on from the beginning of the Chechnya's conflict. Not cruel but not PC either. The Russians will continue living their lives accepting the risks calmly as always.

BTW, there are quite a few things that can be done to improve security at airports: 1. The ultrasound bike - Muslim men and women will have to mount the saddle before flying otherwise they'll have to walk. 2. No locks on the lavatory - please ask a same sex flight-attendent to stay at the door - casually looking inside. 3. Special travel documents and fingerprinting.

It's silly to think that a few a$$-stuffing lunatics cannot be stopped. This is a government lie - to lift the price of their services. But when we settle on the price, the problem will become small enough to ignore.