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Wall St. Journal (Again) Hates Real ID Act

Posted on 02/19/2005 6:06:09 AM PST by ncphinsfan

Republicans swept to power in Congress 10 years ago championing state prerogatives, and one of their first acts was to repeal federal speed-limit requirements. Another was aimed at ending unfunded state mandates. So last week's House vote to require costly and intrusive federal standards for state drivers licenses is a measure of how far the party has strayed from these federalist principles.


TOPICS: Government
KEYWORDS: nationalid; realidact
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To: dirtboy

I'm an AF brat. So what? Does that make me an expert on Hispanics?


51 posted on 02/19/2005 8:47:56 AM PST by bayourod ("It's for the children" has been replaced by "It's to fight terrorists.")
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To: antisocial

It is a lost cause, he doesn't want to debate the issue he just wants to get people upset so they post something stupid.


52 posted on 02/19/2005 8:48:23 AM PST by FactsMatter (:))
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To: dirtboy
how does this law change how often or where your state driver's license is required to be provided as identification?

The whole point is to make DLs into National IDs precisely so any complaints regarding why it can't be used for that purpose will be solved. By standardizing, use of other IDs will fade, people will get in the habit of flashing their DL.

Go a step further: with a truly national ID, it's a short step to eliminating credit/debit/ID cards of all kinds.

Ultimately, not having a DL, and not showing one on demand, will be considered suspect - raising absurd irrational questions ("are you a terrorist?").

In the end, the ID infrastructure will be in place and available to any tyrrant. Do you REALLY trust President Hillary to not use every bureaucratic tool at her disposal?

53 posted on 02/19/2005 8:48:37 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: bayourod
No, how many? Name them.

I have heard that you employ "un-documented workers". Is that the case?

If so that would certainly explain both your position on illegal immigration and your perspective on what hispanics tend to think about immigration policy.

54 posted on 02/19/2005 8:49:39 AM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: bayourod
I'm an AF brat. So what? Does that make me an expert on Hispanics?

No, you insinuated that, because someone said on their home page that they were born an AF brat, that was not indicative of being Mexican. A lot of people of Mexican ancestry have served in the military, including my father-in-law and all of his brothers. So you were making a rather racist assumption there, dude - that because someone was born an AF brat, that they probably weren't Mexican like the poster claimed.

Pretty funny coming from someone playing the race card left and right in this debate.

55 posted on 02/19/2005 8:51:28 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: ncjetsfan
A few thoughts:
56 posted on 02/19/2005 8:51:45 AM PST by Dilbert56
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To: ctdonath2

Sorry, but I will not succumb in this case to the conjectural path of where this COULD end up, but instead examine the specifics of the bill. The actions of a few states basically forced Congress's hand on this matter. So I will go along with this bill and the federal action it entails - and then watch carefully to make sure that power is not abused.


57 posted on 02/19/2005 8:53:13 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: dirtboy
how does this law change how often or where your state driver's license is required to be provided as identification?

Answered another way: given a National ID disguised as a DL, now or soon:

- You can't drive without one
- You can't fly without one
- You can't take a prolonged bus ride without one
- You can't take a train without one
- You can't get a job without one
- You must participate in a confiscatory federal program to get one
- You can't drink in a bar without one
- You can't participate in any federal or state program without one
- You can't borrow a library book without one
- Failure to show one on demand makes you immediately suspect of illegal immigration or terrorism.

Practically speaking, you don't legally exist without one.
Where's the freedom and liberty in that?

58 posted on 02/19/2005 8:55:08 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: ncjetsfan

I suspect that the WSJ editorial board is more libertarian, than conservative.


59 posted on 02/19/2005 8:55:28 AM PST by Eva
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To: FactsMatter; bayourod

To bayourod everything is about race, there's no such thing as us all just being Americans wanting the best for our country.


60 posted on 02/19/2005 8:56:16 AM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: dirtboy
I'm curious - how does this law change how often or where your state driver's license is required to be provided as identification?

If there is no change in how often or where ID's are checked, then the ID will have no benefit for controlling illegal immigration. Keep in mind any ID checks would have to include detention and deportation of illegals to be effective. So why have a new ID instead of an air travel card or some other ID for the specific purposes that you have mentioned. Obviously there is a bigger agenda than just safe air travel.

The ID will either be just as useless as the current DLs are (which plenty of illegals do quite well without) or it will be part of a system of increasingly intrusive ID checks which will bag a few illegals (while the rest go around), a few deadbeat dads, some DUI with suspended licenses, etc. Against those meager benefits we will have a new national database, better fed tracking of gun purchases, etc, etc. Clearly not worth it.

61 posted on 02/19/2005 8:58:48 AM PST by palmer ("Oh you heartless gloaters")
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To: ctdonath2
- You can't drive without one
- You can't fly without one
- You can't take a prolonged bus ride without one
- You can't take a train without one
- You can't get a job without one
- You must participate in a confiscatory federal program to get one
- You can't drink in a bar without one
- You can't participate in any federal or state program without one
- You can't borrow a library book without one

All of these are pretty much the case already, due to security and identity theft concerns - except for access to government bennies, which, quite frankly, SHOULD require proof of citizenship.

- Failure to show one on demand makes you immediately suspect of illegal immigration or terrorism.

You can still verbally identify yourself if needed. You just need a license to do much of the things above. This law does not change anything, other than trying to prevent people who should not have a driver's license from getting one.

62 posted on 02/19/2005 8:59:22 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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bump


63 posted on 02/19/2005 8:59:52 AM PST by P_A_I
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To: palmer
If there is no change in how often or where ID's are checked, then the ID will have no benefit for controlling illegal immigration.

It will have one major benefit to controlling illegal immigration - namely, getting a job. Illegals will have a harder time getting bogus IDs.

64 posted on 02/19/2005 9:00:40 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: ctdonath2
- You can't get a job without one

Not really. The illegals around here work for cash ($100/day) without any ID whatsoever. The businesses that hire them have a large burden of taxes and paperwork if they hire legals, so it is cheaper and easier to hire the illegals. The illegals get rides or drive without licenses and live in a mostly unassimilated community.

But on second thought, you are right. Being a legal citizen and working under the table will probably get a visit from the state DOR or fed IRS wondering how you are making those monthly payments without taxable income.

65 posted on 02/19/2005 9:03:08 AM PST by palmer ("Oh you heartless gloaters")
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To: dirtboy

You are ignoring the fact that illegals get jobs without IDs. The reason is pretty simple, because of unemployment and withholding taxes along with copious paperwork for deducting employee expenses from the business revenue, it is easier and cheaper to hire illegals for cash.


66 posted on 02/19/2005 9:05:30 AM PST by palmer ("Oh you heartless gloaters")
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To: palmer
You are ignoring the fact that illegals get jobs without IDs. The reason is pretty simple, because of unemployment and withholding taxes along with copious paperwork for deducting employee expenses from the business revenue, it is easier and cheaper to hire illegals for cash.

I am not ignoring that fact. However, employers argue against rules cracking down on their hiring of illegals by complaining that they can't tell if ID is false or not. OK, now the IDs will be of much higher quality. Which means this law can eventually be coupled to much stiffer penalties for hiring an illegal.

In the end, illegal immigration will be curbed by three actions - better border control, cutting off illegal access to government bennies and services, and cutting off the demand for illegal labor by making it too risky to hire illegals. Improving standards for driver's licenses and outlawing their issuance to illegals is a big step forward towards the second and third actions.

67 posted on 02/19/2005 9:08:55 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: ncjetsfan

Frankly I don't like parts of this Real ID act.

It's amazing how many people are ready to approve this without thinking the whole thing out.

Now what if the House had mandated that we all have a Bar code tattooed on our forearms so that the Government can just scan us, catalog us,etc. or even better we will be mandated to have an electronic chip placed under out skin.
The question is at what point do you say no?

Did everyone miss the part of the RFID chip in the License to track it or did that just pass over your heads?

I think there are better ways to deal with the Illegals and the Terrorist threat with the existing laws we have with some refinement.

As Conservatives we should be the ones opposing intrusions like this not supporting them. Smaller Government, well here we are creating yet another bureaucracy and to track it's own citizens even better than we are right now.
I expect this stuff from Liberals rather than Conservatives.

Who wins with this kind of legislation, Terrorists do, by forcing our open society to become more closed and regulated. By trying to protect the rights and freedoms we have, we have to lose more of them to fight the terrorists. Kind on an interesting Conundrum isn't it?


68 posted on 02/19/2005 9:17:11 AM PST by Captain Peter Blood
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Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

To: ncjetsfan

Databases contain Information.

Information is Knowledge.

Knowledge is Power.

Power Corrupts.


70 posted on 02/19/2005 9:21:39 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: dirtboy

Your 3 suggestions are ok in an ideal world, but not in the real world. The border ought to be patrolled better but even then it will be porous. Also there are unassimilate millions here already. Your second suggestion is getting less likely by the day. I support the Shenandoah free health clinic, it's independent of the government and gives free health care to anyone. The government is able to pay for less and less of that kind of care, that's why I support the clinic. Third, it's getting more risky to hire real workers. Just trying to deduct the employees expenses from revenue will make it more likely that you will get audited. The small businesses that hire the illegals can't easily be caught using that labor except with a sting. There's no paper of any kind to go back to investigate. Your suggestion works for large businesses but that's not where the problem lies.


71 posted on 02/19/2005 9:22:37 AM PST by palmer ("Oh you heartless gloaters")
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To: palmer
Your 3 suggestions are ok in an ideal world, but not in the real world.

I disagree. So we'll just have to leave it at that.

72 posted on 02/19/2005 9:23:47 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: Captain Peter Blood
Frankly I don't like parts of this Real ID act.

To start with, does it say anything about "To Be Used to Counter Terrorism Only"

(Not that that ever stopped the government from abuse.)

73 posted on 02/19/2005 9:25:00 AM PST by Age of Reason
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To: bayourod
Most of those that say it are pathetic losers who can't keep a job and so they have to blame someone.

The slurs flow so easily from your keyboard, bayourod.

74 posted on 02/19/2005 9:25:03 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: dirtboy
Am I sluring you? Are you one of the ones who continue to accuse me of hiring illegals after I said I don't? Or do you just defend the ones who do because you see nothing wrong with it?
75 posted on 02/19/2005 9:31:05 AM PST by bayourod ("It's for the children" has been replaced by "It's to fight terrorists.")
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To: bayourod
Am I sluring you?

No, you were slurring just about the other side of the debate. Attacks can be personal on FR without being specifically directed at a poster. Comments like that only perpetuate the flame wars that have been going on over this subject for the last few days. They need to stop.

Are you one of the ones who continue to accuse me of hiring illegals after I said I don't?

That's a classic, bayourod. You phrased it just right - so you could challenge my integrity without having to look up my posts and prove that I have done such.

Or do you just defend the ones who do because you see nothing wrong with it?

Go ahead and defend yourself without the slur on the other side - and I'll give your defense a fair evaluation. But it's hard not to laugh at your complaints of being unfairly attacked when you couple that complaint with ... an unfair attack against others.

76 posted on 02/19/2005 9:38:31 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: ctdonath2
The new federal standard requires participation in a federal retirement plan before you can get a state driver's license.

No it doesn't. It requires that you have an SSN.

You can opt out of the "federal retirement plan" by not working, or taking up a life of crime, or marrying well, or living in a shack like Ted Kascinski (living under $50/month will keep you out of the taxation system).

All of those occupations will allow you to get a DL and drive to your heart's content.

77 posted on 02/19/2005 9:40:20 AM PST by angkor
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To: drt1

The fact that there's lots of information out there is not at all the same as requiring me to carry national ID.


78 posted on 02/19/2005 9:44:22 AM PST by From many - one. (formerly e p1uribus unum)
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To: From many - one.

How so?


79 posted on 02/19/2005 9:52:01 AM PST by drt1
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To: dirtboy
If you have something to say why don't you just say it instead of playing silly little word games?

I said that people who accuse me of hiring illegals after I've made it very clear that I do not hire illegals are people who lack integrity and most are pathetic losers who can't keep a job so they blame illegals.

If you take personal offense at that tell why. If you want to accuse me of hiring illegal laborers be prepared to be offended by me every time.

80 posted on 02/19/2005 9:53:14 AM PST by bayourod ("It's for the children" has been replaced by "It's to fight terrorists.")
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To: bayourod
If you have something to say why don't you just say it instead of playing silly little word games?

I am playing no games, bayourod.

I said that people who accuse me of hiring illegals after I've made it very clear that I do not hire illegals are people who lack integrity and most are pathetic losers who can't keep a job so they blame illegals.

So, in other words, you respond to an attack on your integrity with an attack on the integrity of others. That's really special.

If you take personal offense at that tell why.

If I have to explain it to you, there isn't much point in trying.

If you want to accuse me of hiring illegal laborers be prepared to be offended by me every time.

By making up baseless charges of your own. And that's how flame wars perpetuate themselves on FR.

81 posted on 02/19/2005 9:56:30 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: ncjetsfan; All

I think everyone should stick to discussing the issue at hand...the WSJ article, and federal requirements on state licenses.

Dont let yourselves be drawn into an personal exchange whereby the subject of the thread gets steered into a discussion of an individual poster and whether they are racist, a Nazi, etc.

This is a TACTIC some posters are using on FR. People go on these types of threads, and try to direct the discussion away from the pertinent issue to a personal slugfest.


82 posted on 02/19/2005 9:59:08 AM PST by Dat Mon (will work for clever tagline)
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To: ncjetsfan
It is amazing many of the same people who are opposed to federal standards for driver's licenses also oppose states issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
83 posted on 02/19/2005 9:59:52 AM PST by magellan ( by)
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To: dirtboy
This guy is so off base. (You know - One whose name doesn't exist to me).

His 'assumptions' (Polite term) are ludicrous. See the link in post 45 for the real story - Also his (Hijinx) homepage which this loose-with-the-facts charlatan conveniently excerpted.

84 posted on 02/19/2005 10:17:35 AM PST by drt1
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To: bayourod; Reaganwuzthebest
No, how many? Name them.

Of course, you know that violates the posting rules about disclosing information about other FReepers. Are you trying to get someone banned?

85 posted on 02/19/2005 10:21:48 AM PST by HiJinx (www .ProudPatriots.org ~ Operation Easter/Passover ~ February 15 - March 4, 2005)
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To: HiJinx
Check out post #39 - bayourod implied that your profile on your home page didn't sound very Mexican. Which is pretty funny, considering my wife is of Mexican ancestry and her father was in the Air Force when she was born - and all of his brothers served in the military.

A whiff o' bigotry from bayourod, who looves to play the race card against his opponents in this debate.

86 posted on 02/19/2005 11:02:40 AM PST by dirtboy (Drooling moron since 1998...)
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To: HiJinx; bayourod

Maybe I read your post wrong from the link on #45 and you were referring to your son-in-laws only??? But just the same there are plenty of Americans of Hispanic descent opposed to illegal immigration and the race card constantly being played by the few is getting to be a bit much.


87 posted on 02/19/2005 11:07:52 AM PST by Reaganwuzthebest
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To: bayourod

What happened to your #69 to me?

I checked out the link you provided before #69 was pulled and read your comments on the other thread.

All I can say it is a damn shame that dishonest people seek to spread lies and defame the character of say for instance - you regarding the hiring of illegals....

And like Pat Buchanan. In that thread you attempt to perpetuate the lie that he is a bigot and (gasp) an antisemite.

Buchanan is politically incorrect and (gasp again) culturally insensitive so he is branded a bigot and antisemite.

You defend illegal immigration and therefore you must be benefiting from their presence here.

Have you ever noticed that "what goes around, comes around."?


88 posted on 02/19/2005 1:50:39 PM PST by NMC EXP (Choose one: [a] party [b] principle.)
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To: ncjetsfan

I think the WSJ is starting to lean to the left to get more MSM readers. If they keep this up, they will become completely irrelevant..


89 posted on 02/19/2005 1:56:23 PM PST by biff0101
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To: dirtboy; Reaganwuzthebest

I knew you were the one I was thinking of, with Mexican ties. I'm not about to spread names, that's for each of us individually to do.

Fact is, and I think this is what RWB was remembering me saying, my son married a girl whose parents 'immigrated' to Arizona before it was a state. Her Mom's family moved to Bisbee in the early 1900s and her Dad's family settled in this neck of the woods three or four centuries ago.


90 posted on 02/20/2005 10:38:26 AM PST by HiJinx (www .ProudPatriots.org ~ Operation Easter/Passover ~ February 15 - March 4, 2005)
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