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To: twinself
Conquered Georgia? You must be kidding. Have you ever heard about Kars treaty, signed in 1819? Have you ever known that it was Georgia who came first to Russia, not the otherwise? Can you imagine independent Armenia in 19th century? It was mighty Ottoman Empire which was about to wipe out Armenians altoghether and it was a protection of Russian Empire that saved them from Turks. (As well as Bulgarians, by the way).
Have you ever looked at the map and checked where Kazan is and where Caucasus is? Ther are nearly 900 km away from each other. A huge distance by 16th century standards. How come that conquering Kazan helped conquering Caucasus? By the way, conquering Kazan saved Moscow from never ending raids by Tatar khans. So, it was a matter of survival.
Do I need to mention, that not even 60 years after conquering Kazan, your enlightened ancestors marched over to conquer us? How does the fit into your liberal picture?
Frankly speaking, you historical insights lack the sense of historical and geographical context. It looks like what social planners teach in schools. Very black and white, fudged to serve a political purpose.
If you do not mind, that "moderate rebel islamist" theme is a bit groundless. Back in 1999, when Chechens raided Dagestan, Maskhadov was alive and kicking, as well was in charge of Chechnya. He did not prevent Chechnya from sliding into radical Islamism and trying to forcefully impose it on its neighbours. Simply cannot understand how it could prevented it again if he were alive today.
IMHO, your historical insights lack the sense of historical relativity and geographical context. As to the "poisonings" and "imperialistic ambitions", unless it proved by concrete facts, not emotions, I see little reason to discuss it. (As well, as such vague and fuzzy definitions like "true democracy").
However, I absolutely agree that the current Russian government has a very amateurish and awkward foreign policy. But I humbly remind you that Ukrainan elections are not the subject of this discussion.
172 posted on 03/10/2005 11:39:45 PM PST by K. Smirnov (Do not let the sands of time get into your lunch)
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To: K. Smirnov
Kazan and conquer of khanates was only the beginning and the moment when Russian military presence in Northern Caucasia started. And have you heard about Chechen 30 year struggle for independence in XIX century (1828-59)? And I am glad you mentioned my enlighted ancestors and the rule they imposed on Russia for two years in XVII century. Your government has been doing exactly the same thing to Chechens for over 200 years without you even noticing the striking similarity of these hated puppet governments. Plus genocidal policy towards the common Chechnyan people, I forgot to add. Funny, isn't it? Imperialistic ambitions...hmm I thought I would not have to tell you that your country was once a Soviet empire called by late RR an "evil empire". And that every country trying to shake off Stalin's imposed "Moscow's sphere of influence bargain" had to go through long and painful process of divorce and some of them may not be your friends anymore (like Balts). Not in the very near future, at least. Really I don't like to quarrel about facts here. I don't believe you don't know all that by heart. The problem is your lack of denial imperialistic tendencies in your elites. The problem is apologetic attitude to the communist crimes that took millions of lives of innocent Russians. And if you think that your relationships with neighbours under Putin's rule are rosy, then I would like to congratulate you your good humour. You're FM is behaving really in a bear-like manner as far as history is concerned. Constantly trying to show Poland where is its place. Pissing on small ones you "don't consider players". It's useless man, we know our history so lies won't do. ;)

Personally, I don't think there is another solution for Chechnya but independence - sooner or later. And it depends on you whether you'll have it hostile or peaceful and friendly.
173 posted on 03/14/2005 7:44:14 AM PST by twinself
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