Protestant Theologian: He Was My Pope, Too

christianity today ^ | 04.04.05 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[God bless Texas]

Praying to the dead is necromancy which is condemned by God. Mary is dead. There is one intercessor between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.

[Coleus]

Busy thread I see. Didn't expect it.

[Aussie Dasher]

Yes, you put the cat among the pigeons here!

I'm surprised at the degree of anti-Catholic bigotry that still exists.

[Conservative til I die]

Priests of the catholic church probably know less about Jesus and salvation than anyone else on earth.

ANd the Protestants show their true colors.

[Conservative til I die]

Perhaps you can begin to understand our aversion. It isn't Mary, it's the title

What are you, 5 years old? Most people would recognize that two people having the same title doesn't make them equivalent.

[Conservative til I die]

Do you wonder then why the Anathemas of Trent aimed at Luther are still doctrine ?

Sure, because Luther was a wicked, evil man who tore books out of the bible and denied Christian doctrine.

But his followers are still closer to the Catholic Church than the Fundamentalists.

[Binghamton_native]

What is wrong with a Fundamentalist?

[Binghamton_native]

Main Entry: big·ot·ry
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&-trE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
1 : the state of mind of a bigot
2 : acts or beliefs characteristic of a bigot

Main Entry: big·ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big·ot·ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big·ot·ed·ly adverb

So...if Protestants take exception to Catholic doctrine, they are bigots. But, the reverse is not true?

[Aussie Dasher]

I'm not condemning anyone for holding a different view. The same can't be said for some on this thread. That is bigotry.

[Binghamton_native]

Here is an example from an earlier exchange:

To: rbmillerjr
Fair enough. First, as I've been going back and forth with SD on, I find the Rosary "ratios," if you will, to favor Mary over God by more than 4-to-1.
Not only is the ratio completely inappropriate, but it's coupling with real prayer to God. In one breath, you say, "Our Father, who art in Heaven . . ." and rightly call it prayer, but in the next you say ten times, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen," and try to claim that it is not also a type of prayer.

Third, there is this segment of the closing prayer that I mentioned several posts ago:

HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!
Frankly, it's on the basis of this conclusion that I have to reject the thesis that Catholics merely ask Mary to pray for them as they would another believer on the earth. If I were to ask you to pray for me, I might say, "Mr. Miller, would you mind praying for me? I'm having trouble with . . ." I would certainly never say, "O Mr. Miller, my life, my sweetness, my most gentle advocate! Shine thy eyes of mercy upon me, etc." And if I did, I'll wager that you would never willingly receive it!
Fourth, this prayer gives several titles that rightly belong to God and His Christ alone over to Mary, thus sharing His glory (cf. Isa. 42:8).

- Christ is the life (Jn. 14:6)
- Christ is our hope (Ps. 71:5, Col. 1:27, 1 Tim. 1:1)
- The Lord and His Law are our sweetness (Ps. 19:9-10)
- To God we should cry (Jonah 3:8, Ps. 84:2, Lk. 18:7)
- Christ is our Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1), our only Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
- It is God, through Jesus Christ, who shows mercy (Ps. 13:5, 52:8, 108:4; Rom. 9:16; Tit. 3:5), to whom mercy belongs (Dan. 9:9), whose mercy endures forever (1 Chr. 16:34), from whom we obtain mercy (1 Tim. 1:13-14), etc.

I could go further, but it really isn't my intention to merely nitpick. But you can plainly see why I have to regard the Rosary, the most oft-spoken prayer in all of Roman Catholicism, as completely inconsistant with Biblical Christianity. So long as it remains the centerpiece of the Catholic prayer life, I must in good concience regard the devotion to Mary in Roman Catholicism as meeting the criteria for worship, and her titles as usurping God's own.

The problem, I'm afraid, isn't that I am ignorant of Catholicism, but that I've spent too many hours studying it from its own writings.


514 posted on 04/06/2005 7:52:24 PM PDT by Buggman (Baruch ata Adonai, Elohanu Mehlech ha Olam, asher nathan lanu et derech ha y’shua b’Mashiach Yeshua.)
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To: Buggman
"So long as it remains the centerpiece of the Catholic prayer life, I must in good concience regard the devotion to Mary in Roman Catholicism as meeting the criteria for worship, and her titles as usurping God's own."

The problem is that you are reading these things with ignorance in your head and malice in your heart.

Seek the truth.




556 posted on 04/07/2005 3:05:09 AM PDT by rbmillerjr
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I'll grant that there have been some posts over the line (from both sides), but for the most part the above exchange shows two people that are convinced that their argument is right. I see strong opinions, but I don't see the bigotry.

[Aussie Dasher]

Strong opinions I have no problems with at all, but, as you say, some have crossed the line.

John Paul the Great did more than any other Pope to foster religious tolerance and co-operation. I would hate to see this, or any other discussion contribute to the winding back of his wonderful work, even in a small way.

As I mentioned earlier, it seems strange - if not collectively suicidal - for Christians to be at each others' throats at a time when we all face such a real threat from Muslim and humanist extremists.

[Binghamton_native]

"As I mentioned earlier, it seems strange - if not collectively suicidal - for Christians to be at each others' throats at a time when we all face such a real threat from Muslim and humanist extremists."

I couldn't agree with you more.

[DBeers]

I'm surprised at the degree of anti-Catholic bigotry that still exists.

Try Northern Ireland... -LOL -it appears a majority of the bigots are from the UK?

[Maigrey]

placemark

[what's up]

You make some great points!

[RnMomof7]

Sure, because Luther was a wicked, evil man who tore books out of the bible and denied Christian doctrine.
But his followers are still closer to the Catholic Church than the Fundamentalists

Why because they have a liturgy? They only LOOK closer to your eye

They are closer to the Reformation than you might think

The central teaching of Lutheranism is the doctrine of salvation by God's grace alone (Sola Gratia), through faith alone (Sola Fide) for the sake of Christ's merit alone (Sola Christus).

Lutherans believe that God made the world perfect, holy and sinless. However, Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, trusting in their own strength, knowledge and wisdom. Because of this Original Sin -- the sin from which all other sins come -- all of human beings are born sinful and sinners. For Lutherans, it is not actual sins -- the sinful acts committed by an individual -- that earn God's wrath. It is who they are that condemns them.

Lutherans teach that sinners cannot do anything to satisfy God's justice. Every human thought and deed is believed to be colored by sin and sinful motives. God must intervene in this world because He loves sinners and, by His grace alone -- His free gift of mercy -- a person is forgiven, adopted as a child of God and given eternal salvation.

Lutherans believe that individuals receive this gift of salvation by faith alone -- a full and complete trust in God's promises to forgive and to save. Even faith itself is seen as a gift of God, created in the hearts of Christians when they hear God's Word preached and when they are baptized.

Lutherans teach that salvation is possible only because of the birth, perfect life of obedience, sufferings, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In the person of Jesus Christ, Lutherans believe God and Man meet. Because He is God, He is sinless and so a worthy sacrifice, without spot or blemish. Because He is a man, He could die. In His death, death is destroyed, our debt paid for and our sins forgiven.

Lutherans believe that all who trust in Jesus alone can be sure of their salvation. They teach that, at death Christians are immediately taken into the presence of God in Heaven, where they await the resurrection of the body at the second coming of Christ.

Most Lutherans also teach:

Single Predestination: God chose to save His children before the world was created, but does not predestine the lost to be damned. Unlike Calvin, who said explained how the reprobate come to be damned (double predestination), Luther said it was a mystery-something which humanity cannot, and probably should not, comprehend.
(Actually Luther himself was a double predestanarian )

Infant Baptism (Baptismal Regeneration) The Real Presence of Christ's Body and Blood "in, with and under" the Bread and wine of the Lord's Supper.
Amillennialism

For an overview of Lutheran theology, see: ELCA Perspective: Braaten, Carl E., Principles of Lutheran Theology Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1983.
LCMS Perspective: Pieper, Franz. Christian dogmatics. Saint Louis, Mo. : Concordia Pub. House, 1950-1957.

This will not surprise you , but I consider Luther a major and holy figure in the history of the world. There are evil church leaders, but Luther was not one of them