Protestant Theologian: He Was My Pope, Too

christianity today ^ | 04.04.05 | Uwe Siemon-Netto

[TexConfederate1861]

That's OK...I'm Eastern Orthodox, and the Pope is still "excommunicated" too!

[TexConfederate1861]

He wasn't MINE.....

[TexConfederate1861]

I'm with you, brother. Eastern Orthodox have no love for Latins or the Pope either one. We remember the Latins and how they sacked Constantinople.

[TotusTuus]

"Holy Mary, Mother of God...pray for us sinners."

Yes, a beautiful prayer asking the Mother of our Lord Christ Jesus - and therefore our Mother in the life of his Grace - to pray for us to her Son on our behalf. A very Scripturally based request I might add.

This is not praying "with"; this is praying "to".

At this point, it could become a semantic game, and really, on the street most Catholics would commonly say they were "praying to" Mary rather than "with". Not really a big deal, but there is a technical difference. When praying "with" the Angels and Saints, we are asking them - in and through our Lord Christ Jesus - for help in offering our prayers to God. When praying to God, and God alone, that is the Blessed Trinity, we never would word it like above. That is the "pray for us" formula, because that would be silly. Prayers to God ask Him directly for our needs, etc.

Obviously, Christ is not sufficient for Catholics.

Obvious to whom? Be considerate! Speak for yourself if Christ is not sufficient for you. It is dogma of the Catholic Faith that He is for super abundantly sufficient for everyone.

Seems He's not strong enough.

Why do you say this? I know no practicing Catholic, or other Christian for that matter, who believes this.

Praying "to" Mary is done all the time thru the rosary.

Case in point. A very beautiful meditative prayer asking Mary's help in contemplating the life of our Lord. Technically, this is a private devotion, as opposed to liturgical prayer, which is the public prayer of the Church. Scriptural to the core. From it's very heart in the meditation of the interior life of the believer, to the external vocal prayers used to facilitate the meditation. I recommend it to everybody, and know of Protestant Christians who use it as well.

Prayers "to" other saints are made all the time as well.

That's the great thing about being a Catholic. In the communion of Saints we recognize how God has given us each other as brothers and sisters in the Grace of Christ under his Fatherhood. Adopted sons and daughters is how St. Paul and St. John express it. Also, it is very Scriptural if you care to read Scripture in context. In an above post, I recommended a poster to expand and read his reference of 1 Timothy 2:5 for the full context. Here it is:

1 Timothy 2:1-7 (RSV)

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

Note the parts that I bolded. How St. Paul urges Timothy to supplicate, pray, intercede, and give thanksgiving for all men. Also that he says it is good and acceptable to God our Saviour. This is one of many passages that we Catholics use to understand that God wants us to pray for one another. Asking for the prayers of Angels and Saints in heaven, who "have fought the good fight" and now contemplate God directly face to face, is all the more powerful and acceptable to God!

[TotusTuus]

The prayer of St. Michael. Actually this is the short one. Reminiscent of many prayers throughout Holy Scripture. Notice how all the attributes of this Archangel (one of three mentioned by name in Scripture) are accorded to God and His power. This prayer in no way, shape, or form is meant to be taken as a rejection of the fullness of Christ and His Life, Death, and Ressurection, and Ascension into Heaven, and the wait for His Glorious Return for the consummation of redeemed Creation. It is precisely within the context of Christ's Life and Passion and Resurrection - and the resulting flow of Grace through the Holy Spirit - that this prayer is meant to be prayed. St. Michael battling on behalf of mankind is an image proclaimed in Scripture.

Again, technically speaking, this is a prayer where the pray-er is asking St. Michael's help to pray with and protect them through the power of God, which Scriptural and acceptable. It is decidedly not a prayer to the Archangel in "competition" with God. I find no problem with it, and can't figure out a problem with it Scripturally.

Holy Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do you, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls.

[Zeroisanumber]

You going to apologize for Cromwell, boyo?

[fortheDeclaration]

by exhorting Timothy to pray, intercede, supplicate, and give thanksgiving for all men. Not only that, but he then says that it is good and acceptable to God! Which contradicts the whole point you are trying to make. I'd say that the very Scriptural passage that you are using to accuse Catholics in general of "worshiping" Mary (and the other Angels and Saints by extension) separate from the one, true God, clearly shows that Catholics are following Scripture very closely in interceding with them within are familial bonds with Christ!

Now, are you kidding me?

The believer is commanded to pray for others, not have others say prayers to him!

Moreover, you are giving Mary supernatural, divine powers, considering her both immaculate (without sin) and having ascended into heaven like Christ Himself.

1Tim.2:5 is very clear, no one comes between God and the believer, since we have a Great High Priest in Christ (Heb.9-10) who intercedes for us.

We do not need priests, Mary, Saints, Popes, or anyone else going to God for us.

[what's up]

Your words follow:

When praying "with" the Angels and Saints, we are asking them - in and through our Lord Christ Jesus - for help in offering our prayers to God

However, you say you also pray "to" Mary this way

asking Mary's help in contemplating the life of our Lord

(Mary is not the Holy Spirit...this is His role.)

[Constantine XIII]

What about Howard? :P

[BlessedBeGod]

Worship is reserved for God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

And Mary.

worship
noun

1. The act of adoring, especially reverently.
2. Deep and ardent affection.

verb

1. To regard with great awe and devotion.
2. To feel deep, devoted love for.

Then you must "worship" your wife.

[frankiep]

Hail Mary
full of grace
the Lord is with thee
blessed art thou among women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus
Holy Mary, mother of God
PRAY FOR OUR SINNERS
now and at the hour of our death


We do not pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us.

Have you never asked someone to pray for something, or had someone ask you to pray for them or a loved one? I'm willing to bet that you have. So why exactly is it a problem to ask Mary, the mother of Jesus, to pray for us when it is perfectly acceptable to ask Joe Schmoe to do the same thing?

[what's up]

protect them through the power of God

Exactly. You said Catholics don't pray "to" saints and angels. Here you go. Catholics in this prayer are praying TO Michael not WITH him...Michael is being addressed, not God. Nice way to split hairs and all, but God isn't the only one with the power if Michael is doing some of the protecting. Don't look for Michael to defend you in your spiritual battles. Why don't you look to Christ instead? He tells you to come to Him, not Michael, in the New Testament.

[BlessedBeGod]

She isn't considered the 'Queen of heaven'?

Queen of Heaven and Earth. The Queen Mother, so to speak.

[BlessedBeGod]

There are deifferent definitions of the word "prayer" for Catholics. One is worhipping God. Another is to ask saints to intercede for us before God, just like you'd ask a friend to pray for you.

[TotusTuus]

Just a quick glance at the website. I would presume that they are all on the up and up, but can't vouch for it (this is the internet afterall). But if so, my previous posts to you should, at least, give a better understanding of the concept that not all prayers translate automatically to giving worship to one of God's creatures. The worship of adoration is due God alone. The honor of veneration is scripturally acceptable and warranted for Holy Saints who have been redeemed by Christ, whereas this veneration translates to the greater Glory of God.

Of all creatures, the honor due Mary is preeminent since it was through her freely spoken fiat that Christ came to us. This was all part of God's plan of Redemption through the Incarnation of Christ before the foundation of creation. Our honor of her is to the greater Glory of God, her (and our) Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. She is our spiritual Mother to boot!

[BlessedBeGod]

I believe we have a direct line and don't need a "middleman".

So you never ask friends to pray for you? If so, why do you need a middleman?

[what's up]

Wrong. Here's the words of the Pope. He is not asking Mary to pray as you said; rather he asking for protection and entrusting the world to her!

“Mary of the New Advent, we implore your protection on the preparations that will now begin for the next meeting [World Youth Day]. Mary, full of grace, we entrust the next World Youth Day to you. Mary, assumed into heaven, we entrust the young people of the world ... the whole world to YOU.” (August 1993, Denver, Colorado, Pope John Paul 11).

[what's up]

since it was through her freely spoken fiat that Christ came to us

Ah..so Christ came through Mary's word, eh? Funny, I thought God sent Him.

Sorry...you seem full of contradictions. First you say Catholics only pray "with" Mary, then you admit that they actually ask for her help which is not praying "with" but "to" her.

Then you actually say that Christ came through Mary's word, even though trying to deny that you grant her undue esteem.

Lots of twists and turns.

[fortheDeclaration]

There are deifferent definitions of the word "prayer" for Catholics. One is worhipping God. Another is to ask saints to intercede for us before God, just like you'd ask a friend to pray for you.

We don't say a prayer to someone other then God.

Moreover, asking someone to pray for you is far different then expecting Mary to be Omniscient and hearing all the the requests made to her (as God hears those made to Him)

[investigateworld]

Arrrh .... The Campbell's and Glencoe...
May John Paul's successor be filled with the spirit too.